Crusader Strike

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Ravielsk
Posts: 22

Crusader Strike

Post by Ravielsk » Mon May 24, 2021 2:22 pm

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Hello, I recently stumbled upon this video that detailed how paladins in WoW beta had these two dps abilities Holy strike and Crusader Strike. They were both removed so late in development that the scarlet crusade NPCs still use them. So I thought that since turtle wow already brought back holy strike it could also bring back crusaders strike.

From my perspective its very much in line with nature of the server and on top of that it would be a huge improvement to the overall paladin experience while staying true to the Vanilla nature of things. Although I think that it would need a bit of tweaking from its beta form to be fair.

Something along the line of a reduced mana cost at the expense of a longer cooldown. So it would become sort of a fight opener that slightly boosts holy damage.

So what do you think?
Last edited by Ravielsk on Mon May 24, 2021 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tobbsu
Posts: 2

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Tobbsu » Mon May 24, 2021 2:30 pm

Agree sad_turtle_head I love to see paladin be more viable for raids.

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Unangwata
Posts: 268

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Unangwata » Mon May 24, 2021 4:41 pm

As much as I like it, it would be overkill for balance purposes.
If I was to implement it, I would modify it to share CD with Holy Strike, so you would have to chose. Otherwise it's just too much damage.

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Ravielsk
Posts: 22

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Ravielsk » Mon May 24, 2021 5:26 pm

Unangwata wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 4:41 pm
As much as I like it, it would be overkill for balance purposes.
If I was to implement it, I would modify it to share CD with Holy Strike, so you would have to chose. Otherwise it's just too much damage.
Thats actually a good idea. If it were implemented that way it would solve both the balance issue and the mana issue.

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Lawmonark
Posts: 13

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Lawmonark » Mon May 24, 2021 7:05 pm

I would much rather have a Taunt rather than another DPS ability.
Holy Strike is already enough to make Ret paladins "decent" endamge if you push it, but when it comes to tanking, Pally needs a taunt.

Even if this "taunt" in a consumable item that anyone can use and has to be farmed, Some use Magic Candles for a single pull to start the fight, but after that the lack of taunt makes the pally not viable for some content as a tank.

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Ravielsk
Posts: 22

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Ravielsk » Mon May 24, 2021 7:46 pm

Lawmonark wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 7:05 pm
I would much rather have a Taunt rather than another DPS ability.
Holy Strike is already enough to make Ret paladins "decent" endamge if you push it, but when it comes to tanking, Pally needs a taunt.
I mean it could be incorporated as a taunt. Just extend its range, and instead of increasing holy damage it could be used to increase generated aggro.
My concern really is with how the paladin plays in general as especially the leveling experience is just tedious with only two abilities that actually deal damage. Nevermind ranged capabilities or gap closers.

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Lexi
Posts: 54

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Lexi » Mon May 24, 2021 7:56 pm

I'd love to see pally get crusader strike but only if other classes can get some abilities as well. I don't think it would be fair or balanced to give pally a second removed ability until every class gets either a new ability or a removed one.

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Ravielsk
Posts: 22

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Ravielsk » Mon May 24, 2021 8:51 pm

Lexi wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 7:56 pm
I'd love to see pally get crusader strike but only if other classes can get some abilities as well. I don't think it would be fair or balanced to give pally a second removed ability until every class gets either a new ability or a removed one.
Agreed. Especially Druids and Shamans could do with some fine tuning.

Balake
Posts: 220

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Balake » Mon May 24, 2021 10:05 pm

Crusader Strike can't be brought back unless everything that was added as compensation is removed. And that list is LONG. Blizzard removing Crusader Strike was part of their plan to make Paladins into more of a supportive power-booster class. So really, they should have to pick one or the other (Strike Paladin for the beta offensive playstyle, Blessing paladin for the buff bot). Abilities don't exist in a vacuum, they interact and those two playstyles would heavily synergize with each other. With the Vanilla kit, paladins can greatly boost damage but they don't *do* damage. Crusader Strike gives them the damage but during the time they had it they couldn't boost damage so it was fine.

Adding it is possible, with a sacrifice. Paladins will need to accept heavy nerfs to ALL aspects of the class just to fit in a weaker version of Crusader Strike into their power budget. What this means is, paladin dps will stay mostly the same but become more fun and interactive, since their raw damage is higher but they won't be able to multiply it by as much as they used to. And they also won't be able to buff their buddies as much.

Is a spammable swinging spell worth the heavy shift in role, theme, power budget allocation? I think it's subjective, depends on the person you ask and what they want to play. One thing is an objective fact though, it would make paladins (40% budget for self, 60% budget for buffing others) a bit closer to rogues and warriors (90% for self, 10% for others) in terms of selfishness in the power budget.

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Qixel
Posts: 127

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Qixel » Tue May 25, 2021 3:31 am

I was one of the most vocally excited for Crusader Strike when they were originally bringing it back with Holy Strike, but the devs decided against reimplementing it. I even offered to trade Holy Strike, all my bubbles, all my heals, and various other things in exchange for Crusader Strike and was denied. It's definitely not going to happen. :c

Steyr
Posts: 50

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Steyr » Fri May 28, 2021 12:45 pm

Lawmonark wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 7:05 pm
I would much rather have a Taunt rather than another DPS ability.
Holy Strike is already enough to make Ret paladins "decent" endamge if you push it, but when it comes to tanking, Pally needs a taunt.

Even if this "taunt" in a consumable item that anyone can use and has to be farmed, Some use Magic Candles for a single pull to start the fight, but after that the lack of taunt makes the pally not viable for some content as a tank.
Having played years as a paladin tank I actually like how this class doesn't have a single-button all-solver when it comes to threat. Honestly, paladin tanks in later expansions are boring for exactly this "press to tank" ability. If anything should be done about paladin threat generation it should be either adding custom gear that is tuned specifically for paladin tanking (holy damage, armor, defense, stam, int, mp5 in that order), or buffing up righteous fury, so it multiplies threat from holy damage from 60/90 to, say, 100/150%. This way you retain specific paladin tanking style - based on aoe and reflected damage - and make paladin tanks viable.

What many people don't understand about paladin (and, essentially, other) tanks is that you cannot jump ahead of them and open with your biggest damage possible spell - paladin tanks are slow and they require some time to build initial threat (so do other tank classes, but they can compensate with taunt for lack of patience from dps players). Like some other paladin tank put it on another forums, "if you pull aggro from a paladin tank - it's your own f*ing fault". Most people have no idea how threat system works and they just claim that "paladins can't tank" due to that.

Another option that was discussed some time ago on these forums was incorporating paladin taunt into a seal+judgement system. That actually makes sense, and it would allow to balance the threat-wiping mechanics that are used a bit too liberally here, from what I can judge. Still, taunt as a mechanic in this game is akin to fear - press to win, essentially.

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Unangwata
Posts: 268

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Unangwata » Fri May 28, 2021 3:51 pm

Yeah I like paladin not having taunt as well. It's their charm. Give it taunt and it will not be paladin tanking anymore.
Same thing with war, they have taunt but don't have aoe.

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Sinrek
Posts: 739

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Sinrek » Fri May 28, 2021 9:01 pm

You guys still gotta be more specific on which one of the two Crusader's Strike you all talking about.

Funny thing though Paladins are viable for raids already. I mean, of course, you can live with no Paladin in your raid just as fine … however, it's that subtle difference on how would two of those raids perform in the long run. Paladins do bring a lot of utility and support to the raid even if they do not do so much damage as expected … let's say an arms warrior.
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Starkobjekt
Posts: 57

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Starkobjekt » Sat May 29, 2021 10:15 pm

Philosophy of vanilla wow is if the class can do multiple things they pay a tax for that, sadly vanilla philosophy is also 1 spec viable for a class in pve content is enough. On Turtle Ret is pretty strong, especially, compared to something like Enhance that does not benefit as much from cross faction raiding because windfury is boosting ret dmg a ton.

Steyr
Posts: 50

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Steyr » Sun May 30, 2021 9:34 am

Starkobjekt wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 10:15 pm
Philosophy of vanilla wow is if the class can do multiple things they pay a tax for that, sadly vanilla philosophy is also 1 spec viable for a class in pve content is enough. On Turtle Ret is pretty strong, especially, compared to something like Enhance that does not benefit as much from cross faction raiding because windfury is boosting ret dmg a ton.
I think you are talking about officially advertised developer "philosophy" for vanilla wow. In reality, though, things work a little differently. For example, fear mechanic can replace tank in some cases, and we all know how frost mages solo farm ZG trash.
It is worth mentioning, too, that developer stance on the game has been changing with patch versions - there is a reason they redesigned deathbone set as well as paladin t2 in later vanilla patches.
The fact is that hybrid classes can be viable in multiple roles. Of course, they will not perform as ideally as "single" role classes (by the way, is warrior a tank or a dps class?), but with much effort they can come quite close. What matters, essentially, is how much effort the player himself is willing to put into it and how ready the rest of the team is for "unorthodox" playstyle. From what I can see, people simply refuse to think out of their box, when it comes to teamwork.

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