Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

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Ravielsk
Posts: 22

Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

Post by Ravielsk » Tue May 11, 2021 2:15 pm

Hello, I am not sure if this idea has been floated around before but I thought it would be kind of sensible to extend the duration of Paladin blessings in general to something like 20-30 minutes. The class is already built around having at least one blessing active at all times so I really do not see why their duration should be stuck at 5 minutes. Especially when it comes to buffing groups this is nothing but pure annoyance and I kind of fail to see the point behind it either in terms of balance or lore.
Just an idea to bring Pallys buffs more in line with other buffs. So what do you think?

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Augustfenix85
Posts: 17

Re: Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

Post by Augustfenix85 » Tue May 11, 2021 10:01 pm

Shaman totem buffs are 1 and 2 minutes. A Warrior’s shout is 2 minutes. I’m pretty sure it has to do with balance on why the length of the buff. I agree they should be longer. I wish there was a totem back pack to carry totems around like Paladin’s auras
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Ravielsk
Posts: 22

Re: Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

Post by Ravielsk » Tue May 11, 2021 10:31 pm

I cant claim to be an expert on shamans or warriors but from what I understand their buffs are relatively short because they are technically meant to be part of their rotation. Warrior shouts are fairly powerfull and buff everyone in the party and totems again work for everyone in the party and seem to be designed for quick switching between them.

I could be wrong but that is the impression I got when I tried them out.

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Velite
Posts: 24

Re: Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

Post by Velite » Wed May 12, 2021 12:01 am

You are right, Paladin buffs were originally the rotation. But in patch 1.9, Blizzard introduced greater blessings which last 15 minutes and apply per class in group. But these are first unlocked in the 50's, until then you got the 5 minute blessings.

Funny enough however, Protection paladin had a talent to make the single target salvation last 15 minutes.

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Ravielsk
Posts: 22

Re: Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

Post by Ravielsk » Thu May 13, 2021 12:17 pm

Which is kind of my problem. Paladin blessings are not part of any rotation(just because of the mana cost if for no other reason) but the class is "balanced" around having one active at all times so really there is no good reason for them to be so short. Greater blessings are solution to a problem that is more or less exclusive to raids.

Especially when compared to other classes the buff duration makes no sense. Mark of the wild, Arcane intelect, power word: fortitude and most other class buffs have a duration of 30 minutes so what is the point of keeping paladin ones at 5 minutes until lvl50? Its just this weird quirk of vanilla that really has no justification for existing as far as I can tell.

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Unangwata
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Re: Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

Post by Unangwata » Thu May 13, 2021 3:15 pm

It's fun

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Ravielsk
Posts: 22

Re: Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

Post by Ravielsk » Fri May 14, 2021 12:50 pm

Unangwata wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 3:15 pm
It's fun
I am sure it is. Just not for paladin players.

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Velite
Posts: 24

Re: Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

Post by Velite » Fri May 14, 2021 5:49 pm

Yeah that is the thing is when they overhauled the strike system to make paladin a buff bot, the "power" of the paladin is how well they could keep those buffs up. Indeed, kings, wisdom, might are very strong dps buffs, salvation being the number 1 because it allows you to do more threat without stopping short of the tank. Since ret paladin was the only one who could do Kings, they were sought after to buff everyone with kings. Because kings lasted 5 minutes, you couldn't do other abilities during that time since you needed most of your globals to cast kings on everyone or dispel or heal. The 1.9 greater blessing didn't actually make paladins more powerful, it just was a big convenience to not have to center your rotation around buffing everyone constantly. But it also killed the role a ret paladin had, since now they went from being so busy trying to buff everyone with kings, to now

a) not being able to buff kings unless you want to skip on consecrate and or vengeance
b) not having anything to do other than auto attack because blizzard decided to give you free globals but nothing to replace them with until TBC.

Even though the addition of greater blessings was great, it shifted the unique aspects of each of the paladin trees prior to 1.9: Deep holy could get sanctity, deep prot had 15 minute salvation, and 31 pt ret had kings. There were compelling reasons to bring different types of paladins to raids before 1.9, outside of how they function normally because of their unique support aspects. Now it's pretty cut and dry that you just need to bring holy paladins.

The single blessings still being 5 minutes is just an artifact of the blizzard class design after vanilla release which was to make the classes all have at least 1 role to play in raids. They didn't really care too much about how the classes leveled (when 5 minute blessings is still a problem now). Imo single blessings could be raised to 10 minutes, to keep greater blessings last longer.

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Ravielsk
Posts: 22

Re: Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

Post by Ravielsk » Wed May 19, 2021 11:58 am

Honestly I would prefer to have single buffs bumped up to 15 minutes and the greater blessings to 30 minutes. If for nothing else than for the sake of convenience. Its one of the changes from retail that were actually good.

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Unangwata
Posts: 268

Re: Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

Post by Unangwata » Thu May 20, 2021 3:46 pm

Ravielsk wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 12:50 pm
Unangwata wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 3:15 pm
It's fun
I am sure it is. Just not for paladin players.
How it is fun for everyone else if they can't cast it. Look at it as your virtue rather than must. It might be 5min long but nobody else can do it.

The current tought stream is exactly what made modern games turn you zombie, as comfortable as it can be, you follow arrows, dots mark quest location, game tells you what to do and when to, even when to press buttons. I won't even mention combat difficulty. You come to vanilla yet you fall into same trap after a while demanding "improvements"..

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Ravielsk
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Re: Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

Post by Ravielsk » Thu May 20, 2021 6:51 pm

Unangwata wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 3:46 pm
Ravielsk wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 12:50 pm
Unangwata wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 3:15 pm
It's fun
I am sure it is. Just not for paladin players.
How it is fun for everyone else if they can't cast it. Look at it as your virtue rather than must. It might be 5min long but nobody else can do it.

The current tought stream is exactly what made modern games turn you zombie, as comfortable as it can be, you follow arrows, dots mark quest location, game tells you what to do and when to, even when to press buttons. I won't even mention combat difficulty. You come to vanilla yet you fall into same trap after a while demanding "improvements"..
For one I did not come here for Vanilla. I specifically joined the server because I saw that it was specifically not Vanilla. If I was interested in a pure vanilla experience there is a myriad of other servers that offer it. I came here because I saw that turtle wow is not afraid to acknowledge some of Vanillas shortcomings and address them. That not only do they build on top of the Vanilla framework but that they do not keep structural mistakes in it simply for the sake of being "faithful".

Besides we are talking here about buff duration. Just because something was done on retail does not automatically make it a bad change. I am not asking for infinite duration buffs and seals or a integrated quest helper or LFR. I am just saying that the 5 minute buff duration makes no sense when every other class gets a 30 minute one.

With this sort of attitude turtle should remove the holy strike spell simply on the basis that it makes playing paladins more "comfortable" and "easier" to play(and its technically what retail did after vanilla). Should have never attempted having a transmog system or implement high elves and goblins... basically

There are times when "slippery slope" argument is a valid one but this is not it.

Talanaare
Posts: 2

Re: Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

Post by Talanaare » Fri May 21, 2021 12:12 pm

^

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Unangwata
Posts: 268

Re: Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

Post by Unangwata » Fri May 21, 2021 12:21 pm

Ravielsk wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 6:51 pm
Unangwata wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 3:46 pm
Ravielsk wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 12:50 pm


I am sure it is. Just not for paladin players.
How it is fun for everyone else if they can't cast it. Look at it as your virtue rather than must. It might be 5min long but nobody else can do it.

The current tought stream is exactly what made modern games turn you zombie, as comfortable as it can be, you follow arrows, dots mark quest location, game tells you what to do and when to, even when to press buttons. I won't even mention combat difficulty. You come to vanilla yet you fall into same trap after a while demanding "improvements"..
For one I did not come here for Vanilla. I specifically joined the server because I saw that it was specifically not Vanilla. If I was interested in a pure vanilla experience there is a myriad of other servers that offer it. I came here because I saw that turtle wow is not afraid to acknowledge some of Vanillas shortcomings and address them. That not only do they build on top of the Vanilla framework but that they do not keep structural mistakes in it simply for the sake of being "faithful".

Besides we are talking here about buff duration. Just because something was done on retail does not automatically make it a bad change. I am not asking for infinite duration buffs and seals or a integrated quest helper or LFR. I am just saying that the 5 minute buff duration makes no sense when every other class gets a 30 minute one.

With this sort of attitude turtle should remove the holy strike spell simply on the basis that it makes playing paladins more "comfortable" and "easier" to play(and its technically what retail did after vanilla). Should have never attempted having a transmog system or implement high elves and goblins... basically

There are times when "slippery slope" argument is a valid one but this is not it.
You miss the point. I love turtle enhancements. They don't make your life easier. They make it richer.
Long buff duration just make your life 'easier'. For what purpose ?

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Merikkinon
Posts: 119

Re: Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

Post by Merikkinon » Fri May 21, 2021 1:30 pm

On any of my non-paladin characters, when I receive a paladin buff I *really* want to use it, to be active. They are powerful buffs, to me more so than most other standard buffs. Such is the power of them, so a 5min buff to me indicates they are special. And I think that plays out in action. Double it? Maybe. Triple - it's too much. It makes something valuable even more valuable and overweighted.

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Ravielsk
Posts: 22

Re: Paladins Blessings and Buffs in general

Post by Ravielsk » Fri May 21, 2021 10:05 pm

Unangwata wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 12:21 pm
You miss the point. I love turtle enhancements. They don't make your life easier. They make it richer.
I am not arguing for making things easier. There is nothing hard about clicking a button every five minutes in a game where I am mashing buttons every 2 seconds. I am arguing for parity among classes. Which is something already partially done with the inclusion of Holy strike(btw how does that not make things easier?).

Besides this is just factually wrong. Many of the turtle wow additions make the game easier in many respects. The sheep quests in Elwyn make getting decent bag easier. Paladins holy strike makes it easier to deal with mobs. Having more quests generally makes it easier to level as it increases exp per hour. Khadgars unlocking makes it easier to open locked boxes. Chronoboon Displacer makes it easier to manage and keep world buffs and by proxy makes raiding easier. The Refreshment Table makes it easier for the party to get food. The new world bosses make it easier to get gear and so on. Many of these changes lessen some problem in a way or two.
Unangwata wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 12:21 pm
Long buff duration just make your life 'easier'.


Please stop putting words in my mouth. I never used the word easier or easy or any of its variants. So please criticize what I wrote not what you wish I wrote.
Unangwata wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 12:21 pm
For what purpose ?
Why ever not?
Merikkinon wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 1:30 pm
On any of my non-paladin characters, when I receive a paladin buff I *really* want to use it, to be active. They are powerful buffs, to me more so than most other standard buffs. Such is the power of them, so a 5min buff to me indicates they are special. And I think that plays out in action. Double it? Maybe. Triple - it's too much. It makes something valuable even more valuable and overweighted.
That is a fair point. The pally buffs are more powerful than those of other classes but not by much and not always. Some of them definitely need different duration to regular buffs. But that differential is in my opinion not nearly enough to justify keeping them so short.
For example Mark of the Wild(Rank 7) gives 285 armor, 12 to all stats and 20 to all resistances and lasts for 30 minutes. Blessing of Might(Rank 7) gives 185 attack power for 5 minutes.

Might is clearly the more powerful buff but not exactly by a mile. So the party will want both to be on at everyone that benefits but the druid has to buff only once every 30 minutes while the paladins has to do it every 5. Even when ignoring the total mana cost (445 vs 780) it just feels like a setup made more to annoy the paladin rather than to offset any benefits the buff might have.

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