things I dislike

[quetal]

1. people who think they know everything. in one ZG pug, there was a leader who didn't give prot pala items to prot pala, because he was convinced it is not the right gear and he would need +str instead of +def and +sp. he was being a bully to the paly the discussion in raid, while being in the wrong.
2. people who are not having fun. after 1 hour of LFG/LFM for ZG, within the first 10 minutes the leader kicked one guy for not being geared enough to his liking - wasting lifetime.
3. people who are selfish. in kara10, after his SR didn't drop the leader simulated a disconnect to us, only to after >1 hour come back and immediately leave the group, proving to us his bad deed.
4. condescending behavior among lvl60 + geared players. fresh pug, current leader makes one unusual step is immediately blamed for say opening a group that he shouldn't if he doesnt know the game. Wtf and following this logic no-one is ever going to open a group his/her first time.

All this makes one anxious to play the game normally without stress, because there is always the possibility some asshole who think they know it all but they don't pops up in an otherwise considered, fast and all-the-while relaxed raid/group.
The condescending behavior among&between lvl 60 players who are not enjoying the game but instead want to be angry and upsettings, makes me want to punch them in the face.
We can ignore players but it's not very effective. I believe turtle should especially judge the high-end players (ZG is not high-end but let's pretend it is) who have the most power.

So what about adding something to the griefing-rules, so that enough reports against one player make them go to court (not ingame but visible to them in account management or so) and they can plead guilty, appeal, or say their word so it may be word against word. Something like that. And after 3 strikes one gets 1 month off, I say burn them.
Thanks for reading my suggestion.

[Terexin]

I'm sorry, are we in third grade, where every slight can be fixed by the homeroom teacher...?

As nice as it would be for there to be griefing rules, GMs can't follow and pester every bad person around. There's gonna be bad people, and the usual response from GMs would be to /ignore them. "You can't fix stupid" is a great way to think in this case.

My advice - best avoid pugs if you're fresh 60. There's a lot of new players recently, and fresh 60 is the time where you see the most weeding out. As in, people who are just gonna level up and whine when they don't get stuff, and those who will actually commit to long-time raiding and team play. Join a raiding guild that has the right timeframes for you and go from there. Usually in those guilds, the raid-leaders have enough sense and experience to properly guide and lead (especially early raids like MC/ZG).

If it makes you feel any better, some guilds/discord chats occasionally collect blacklists of people who have ruined raids/groups in some way (ninja loot, dropping out, disgusting speech, bad attitude, etc.) so they can be avoided. I think someone mentioned to me once - there ARE griefing penalties, but only for more extreme cases where the behaviour is obvious and constantly repeated.

Oh, yeah, also, retail WoW is far worse, community-wise.

Good luck! You'll find the right crowd for you, just have a bit of patience.

[Ataika]

Thats the reason why you join guild and forget about pugs

[Whalemilk]

Play hardcore.

People are generally nice. If you want to survive you gotta be nice to your fellow hardcore

[Grizb37]

As said, just join a guild, pugs have always been terrible. No one to blame

[Bigsmerf]

I'd pretend to be surprised about having these kinds of people, but- I'm sure recent changes and the rapidly rising publicity is slowly dragging in the blizzard classic players too.

[quetal]

I'm sorry, are we in third grade, where every slight can be fixed by the homeroom teacher...?

Excuse me but in what effing reality do you live where it actually ever happens that a homeroom teacher is able to fix every slight? I am convinced managing a third-grade is harder because it's reality and not virtuality. In reality, slights - which I didn't even talk about -, say insults or swear words, affect people personally and it's not seldom that they are not ever fully redeemed. In virtuality, stuff that matters is gameplay-related and much less capable of traumatizing or personal (or to be taken less personally, if you're not a no-lifer or take a game or yourself too seriously). Sorry to tell you but we are in a deterministic computer game (each chat-message and action is sent to the server, hence transparent, different than in reality) where moderation is required so that things don't go to shit (or blizz-like).
Some people who are being idiotic at the presence need a reaction from "above" to reflect on their behavior and better themselves, that would be beneficial to everyone of us. Except you may be part of the problem or enjoy it.

As nice as it would be for there to be griefing rules, GMs can't follow and pester every bad person around. There's gonna be bad people, and the usual response from GMs would be to /ignore them. "You can't fix stupid" is a great way to think in this case.

My advice - best avoid pugs if you're fresh 60. [...]
I think someone mentioned to me once - there ARE griefing penalties [...]

Oh, yeah, also, retail WoW is far worse, community-wise.

Good luck! You'll find the right crowd for you, just have a bit of patience.

Indeed there are griefing penalties and instead of having heard someone mentioning them once, I know them by heart and where to find them: turtle-wow.org/rules .
To me, you are justifying bad players behavior. And apparently want to patiently carry out the act of getting shitted at without consequence - not my way.
You were not able to make sence of my post without belittling an assumed new player/new lvl 60, I feel like you're showing off exactly the kind of imprudent demeaning and assuming behavior of the people I'm talking. Let me tell you that even as an anonymous bis-gear naxx-raider or say experienced player, I want to have fun also out-of-guild and in public, without needing to expect the worst around every corner.
There IS a "police". I agree that the turtle team can't do more than their time and resources allow, but I am not talking about "every bad person" or slight stuff, imho it's medium to hard stuff (to -as said- e.g. wrongfully deny items in raid), "below" or on par with the griefing rules in place. You basically say we cant talk about that, that we are to bear this, and allow that behavior.
Once more my original suggestion: If only to collect evidence, a check list with reports should be kept, for the time when there is enough moderators with free time (coming soon or eventually) to care a little and at least send automated warnings, at worst (time-effort-wise) make a case for a temporary ban. Permaban can be kept for the worst cases.

Play hardcore.

People are generally nice. If you want to survive you gotta be nice to your fellow hardcore

Interesting to hear that perspective but not my way to constantly be stressed out about not being able to make mistakes (which cost maybe 10 minutes at worst to get back to continue where I was, instead of days/weeks).

As said, just join a guild, pugs have always been terrible. No one to blame

Pugs are not always terrible / don't have to be, and yes there is someone to blame if he makes the pug far worse than it has to be for some of the participants.

I'd pretend to be surprised about having these kinds of people, but- I'm sure recent changes and the rapidly rising publicity is slowly dragging in the blizzard classic players too.

Thanks for your understanding which in itself is a little relief to me.

___
People start to relate to what I'm talking about and this is where we need to START ACTING before it gets too toxic and crippled. I remember a year ago, there were RP events in stormwind I randomly stumbled upon, as well as in say EPL/WPL. Now i dont see those anymore (ok I know they still happen, just actually feels like they are less because I don't stumble upon them as often as before) - instead: I saw striptease shows in EPL citadels at night. I see a lot of kids talking SHIT. uwu check in world-check? WTF IS GOING ON. I used to love barrens chat, now a lot of stuf I read there by the minute, offends me.
They just recently changed the reporting options to be not divided into problems with another character or my character - now they are just generalized. One could go as far as asking the question: Why did they change the reporting to be less against players? Or: Are we a serious RP-Server or just a silly goofy pserver for everyone? (by that I don't want to undermine that turtle is a very special community love project, still, with outrageously competent developers)

Further suggestions: Have a application ritual for nordanar (if only to make people feel like they are part of a caring community, maybe be able to add an initial friend/person/mentor to write to if they have a problem) / close the nordanar realm for new players NOW and create another non-pvp just pve realm for new players with the option to transfer your character. We had multiple realms FOREVER in wow. / (the next one may be the hardest to implement) have a knob next to ignore that says "ignore and forget" so that the other player is completely hidden visually and in chat and group finder (except for when raiding together of course, which logically and in all honesty this is the only thing that couldn't be completely "ignored and forgotten")

In all the "harshness", I am aware of and want to admit that this is "just" my personal opinion. What I wrote is meant to build my case of constructive criticism not meant to hurt anyone. Thanks for reading.

[Terexin]

Brutal. It seems like you came here to pick a fight more than anything.

I can't believe someone managed to turn my expression of "you can't help all people" into an essay. I wrote what I wrote to be REAL, not sugarcoat it. I'm not excusing bad behavior, I'm telling you, that without question, a lot of that bad behavior will continue unpunished.

Look, if you wanna go set up a picnic on the moral high ground, be my guest. I got other stuff to do.

[Bigsmerf]

I'm sorry, are we in third grade, where every slight can be fixed by the homeroom teacher...?

Excuse me but in what effing reality do you live where it actually ever happens that a homeroom teacher is able to fix every slight? I am convinced managing a third-grade is harder because it's reality and not virtuality. In reality, slights - which I didn't even talk about -, say insults or swear words, affect people personally and it's not seldom that they are not ever fully redeemed. In virtuality, stuff that matters is gameplay-related and much less capable of traumatizing or personal (or to be taken less personally, if you're not a no-lifer or take a game or yourself too seriously). Sorry to tell you but we are in a deterministic computer game (each chat-message and action is sent to the server, hence transparent, different than in reality) where moderation is required so that things don't go to shit (or blizz-like).
Some people who are being idiotic at the presence need a reaction from "above" to reflect on their behavior and better themselves, that would be beneficial to everyone of us. Except you may be part of the problem or enjoy it.

As nice as it would be for there to be griefing rules, GMs can't follow and pester every bad person around. There's gonna be bad people, and the usual response from GMs would be to /ignore them. "You can't fix stupid" is a great way to think in this case.

My advice - best avoid pugs if you're fresh 60. [...]
I think someone mentioned to me once - there ARE griefing penalties [...]

Oh, yeah, also, retail WoW is far worse, community-wise.

Good luck! You'll find the right crowd for you, just have a bit of patience.

Indeed there are griefing penalties and instead of having heard someone mentioning them once, I know them by heart and where to find them: turtle-wow.org/rules .
To me, you are justifying bad players behavior. And apparently want to patiently carry out the act of getting shitted at without consequence - not my way.
You were not able to make sence of my post without belittling an assumed new player/new lvl 60, I feel like you're showing off exactly the kind of imprudent demeaning and assuming behavior of the people I'm talking. Let me tell you that even as an anonymous bis-gear naxx-raider or say experienced player, I want to have fun also out-of-guild and in public, without needing to expect the worst around every corner.
There IS a "police". I agree that the turtle team can't do more than their time and resources allow, but I am not talking about "every bad person" or slight stuff, imho it's medium to hard stuff (to -as said- e.g. wrongfully deny items in raid), "below" or on par with the griefing rules in place. You basically say we cant talk about that, that we are to bear this, and allow that behavior.
Once more my original suggestion: If only to collect evidence, a check list with reports should be kept, for the time when there is enough moderators with free time (coming soon or eventually) to care a little and at least send automated warnings, at worst (time-effort-wise) make a case for a temporary ban. Permaban can be kept for the worst cases.

Play hardcore.

People are generally nice. If you want to survive you gotta be nice to your fellow hardcore

Interesting to hear that perspective but not my way to constantly be stressed out about not being able to make mistakes (which cost maybe 10 minutes at worst to get back to continue where I was, instead of days/weeks).

As said, just join a guild, pugs have always been terrible. No one to blame

Pugs are not always terrible / don't have to be, and yes there is someone to blame if he makes the pug far worse than it has to be for some of the participants.

I'd pretend to be surprised about having these kinds of people, but- I'm sure recent changes and the rapidly rising publicity is slowly dragging in the blizzard classic players too.

Thanks for your understanding which in itself is a little relief to me.

___
People start to relate to what I'm talking about and this is where we need to START ACTING before it gets too toxic and crippled. I remember a year ago, there were RP events in stormwind I randomly stumbled upon, as well as in say EPL/WPL. Now i dont see those anymore (ok I know they still happen, just actually feels like they are less because I don't stumble upon them as often as before) - instead: I saw striptease shows in EPL citadels at night. I see a lot of kids talking SHIT. uwu check in world-check? WTF IS GOING ON. I used to love barrens chat, now a lot of stuf I read there by the minute, offends me.
They just recently changed the reporting options to be not divided into problems with another character or my character - now they are just generalized. One could go as far as asking the question: Why did they change the reporting to be less against players? Or: Are we a serious RP-Server or just a silly goofy pserver for everyone? (by that I don't want to undermine that turtle is a very special community love project, still, with outrageously competent developers)

Further suggestions: Have a application ritual for nordanar (if only to make people feel like they are part of a caring community, maybe be able to add an initial friend/person/mentor to write to if they have a problem) / close the nordanar realm for new players NOW and create another non-pvp just pve realm for new players with the option to transfer your character. We had multiple realms FOREVER in wow. / (the next one may be the hardest to implement) have a knob next to ignore that says "ignore and forget" so that the other player is completely hidden visually and in chat and group finder (except for when raiding together of course, which logically and in all honesty this is the only thing that couldn't be completely "ignored and forgotten")

In all the "harshness", I am aware of and want to admit that this is "just" my personal opinion. What I wrote is meant to build my case of constructive criticism not meant to hurt anyone. Thanks for reading.

I'm sorry man, but-... What is the point of all this? I haven't seen any bad suggestions here. Joining a guild and keeping track of who is and isn't a cunt can help your experience in the long run. Shit like this very much does go unpunished and as sucky as that is it's just how things work. Move on, and find people who'll treat you with basic human respect.

[Akos1896]

I can be internally judgemental and it puts me away from the game every now and then.
In an MMO it's important to me that I like the players I'm playing with.
In the befinning of the leveling it's usually there. Players do more mistakes but mostly just wanna experience the fun and consider it a game.
At lategame it mostly disappears as I feel.
Guy hates the instance but farms it for days for an item.
Other guy sees that the loot he cares about didn't drop and quits (again, game stopped being about fun at this point).
Third guy considers the game an economy simulator and creates really scammy pugs to get some cash.
Fourth guy is too ignorant and joins scammy pugs for greed, giving the audience of scammy pugs.
Fifth guy just wants to speedrun instances and throws a tantrum is someone is slow. Again, the enjoyment of the game is lost.
Sixth guy comes to Kara10 in full T3 just to spam the chat with DPS logs to make his life feel less miserable.
Seventh guy mindlessly kills DM plants like a second job to go to raids not for the fun of it but for 1-2 items.
Eigthth guy spams the world chat with guild invites thinking that he makes a meaningful community out of online strangers.
Same guy guilt-trips you if you wanna leave the game.

In my experience, during lategame the game itself stops being fun because people's attitude changes.
My fav example is a badly done pug where everyone hates eachother, it takes for 3 hours and people only stay in the hope of loot. Perfect way of spending a weekend.