We need tweaks- not revamps

[Bigsmerf]

I think it's safe to say we all know how CC2 went. I don't want to say it's been going bad- but, by my judgement, and many other's... It's been going *wrong*

What do I mean by this? Well- if you've been around for a couple years now, you might've heard of a special little philosophy and design thought process the turtle team used to operate by. In a nutshell, it revolved around keeping classes more or less the same in their general playstyle, and tweaking talents and abilities to improve the performance of previously less strong specs. When I say less strong I don't mean unviable, because believe it or not- just about everything was.

While I understand that the turtle team did indeed already add plenty of abilities or new talents, they were normally ones that either didn't have much impact on rotation, or gave fun utility and never changed the core of a specialization's identity. What he have now? Wellll...

Melee healer paladin, self destruct arcane mage, completely revamped survival hunter (which isn't bad in a vacuum, I've been loving it), support rogue, elemental shaman with no burst, hot streak lite fire mage, smite priest replacing discipline, feral cat being made into a bleed build that still performs worse than normal cat, new feral talents that only focus on bear or cat... And a strange self harm fury build that moves faster when it uses bloodthirst... Neat, but- is it at all necessary or even close to what people might consider 'vanilla'...?

Take a wild fucking guess.

Okay, okay- I've made my point. We're starting to stray off the beaten path, obviously. I don't want to say that's inherently a bad thing- as some of these changes can be fun and appealing in their own right, and seem like interesting design concepts, but... Again, the issue is- as many have pointed out... None of them are true to vanilla, which is what Turtle's playerbase seems to want. If balance is the issue, if could have very much been achieved through number tweaking, talent melding or other things along those lines. Boomkins doing low damage and having mana problems? Just make their spells do more damage and lower the mana cost. Enhancement shamans having threat issues? Lower threat on their DPS centric abilities. Prot pallies not having a taunt? Just give them a normal fucking taunt (which I think they did actually). Mana problems? Lower consecrate mana cost, or something.

What the devs don't understand (yes, it's not the other way around) is that we (for the most part) never wanted our specs completely revamped, torn apart, or nerfed in the hybrid department. Hell, some of us just wanted to play the same old meme and have fun doing it. I loved feral before CC2, but playing now just leaves a sour taste in the mouth, 'cause every talent and piece of tier gear I look at basically tells me "HEY, wanna do cat DPS? Hope you like this completely different playstyle we made for ourselves instead of you! Fuck off with that powershift crap, you just don't get it yet. Can't play bear without hurting your cat capabilities, either! Gotta pick one or the other pal!"

Might've turned this into an angy rant near the end here, but-... Eh, I'm sure we've all had our fair share of frustrations with how things are going. This is sort of a half vent half suggestion (that will never be seen) and I figured I'd get it out of my system.

Thanks for everything you guys do, though. I've thoroughly enjoyed my time here for what it's worth, and I think that despite everything I'll be poking my head back in every so often since A) I'm poor as fuck and this is free- and B) Turtle WoW is genuinely the best WoW experience I've ever had despite all its flaws and recent fuck ups.

[Darktifa]

ill share my insignificant opinion once again

Turtle wow is free
You enjoy the changes and the project, you keep playing

You dislike the changes and the way things are evolving
you thank everyone and move on with your life
You are not entitled to anything

Luckily, nowadays, there are several options to choose from
Crying every day won't change anything
Turtle project is moving forward stronger than ever, whether you like it or not
F Activision/Blizzard/Microsoft

PS - i'm not replying directly to you Bigsmerf

[Mikhail420]

Why do you keep saying 'we' ? You do not speak for me and more than likely you also do not speak for the majority of the playerbase. My first post just cuz im tired of a very loud small minority that barely even plays the game keeps crying on the forums and trying to gaslight the devs into thinking that we as the playerbase are overwhelmingly unsatisfied with the changes. I personally am very grateful to the devs and agree with their vision for classes for the most part, where they make more specs viable and make the rotations a little more than just spamming frostbolt. And id argue the majority of the playerbase enjoy exploring new specs and abilities that come with them, you dont see people that actually play the game constantly complain in the world chat. Yes there are problems but the devs are usually listening to feedback and we are having balance patches and a constantly evolving game instead of a stagnant vanilla 1.12 server which most of us played for a million times, this is a vanilla + server after all. Just hope the devs see this and know that most of us that play the game appreciate their effort and not to get manipulated by these bored people who just sit on the forums 24/7 and barely play the game

[Snigery]

I can't speak from a lot of aspects, but so far I am enjoying leveling a warrior; Though who is to say it is not just the changes to the rage generation mechanics. Looking at the Arms tree (my preferred spec) is much more interesting and I am looking forward to specing into it more. I also have a lvl 40 restoration shaman I had shelved for years now after my last hiatus. I look forward to trying out healing again with the changes, they seem like great improvements there as healing was not pleasant.

I also have a melee hunter which I specced myself. I play it more as a warrior with a pet and some ranged/trap utilities than a pet-less hunter, so I found most of the changes to survival - though interesting - not necessary. I do like a lot of the changes to the BM tree, the combining of many talents and making it far easier and clearer to spec there, so I may find myself after trying out survival spec sticking with BM. I find the improvements to aspect of the wolf very good, i like the lower cost, the removed non-range restriction, the increase to attack speed, and the tiny heal, I hardly used it in the first CC change, it just wasn't worth it.

So that's all where I come from at the moment. Most of what I play seems to have been improved, or just nice stuff added to it. Still, can you call this a revamp? If you have played elsewhere where they have revamped the classes, you'd know what that looks like. I still think this is skirting the edge or that, not quite there yet. So far I like it.

[Ishilu]

Fully agree with Bigsmerf.

While some changes were good and even necessary, entirely removing and replacing spells and even talent trees (especially looking at sub rogues and survival hunters, but demolocks don't look fun anymore, either) has taken things waaaay too far. I understand that some people welcome these changes but the devs have also alienated a part of their existing playerbase by removing their preferred playstyles from the game.

Only looking at those two, I guess they could simply have added an entire new class, like the "ranger" with one melee dps tree, some weird subtlety support tree and maybe a tanking tree 'cos you can never have enough tanks, while leaving the existing classes and spcs intact.

The game in its current state is not playable for me but I'll occasionally poke my head into the forums and see whether things have improved.

[NekoByteData]

I really like these changes, but I understand your concern.

I mean, why not add an undead naga arms spec paladin with flying mounts if we're getting away from vanilla, right?

But again, I do really like these changes.

[Eightysixed]

ill share my insignificant opinion once again

Turtle wow is free
You enjoy the changes and the project, you keep playing

You dislike the changes and the way things are evolving
you thank everyone and move on with your life
You are not entitled to anything

Luckily, nowadays, there are several options to choose from
Crying every day won't change anything
Turtle project is moving forward stronger than ever, whether you like it or not
F Activision/Blizzard/Microsoft

PS - i'm not replying directly to you Bigsmerf

I fully agree with this. Everyone keeps wanting to tweak the game and make it more like retail. I say move one with your life. Enjoy turtle for what it is. Stop with these crazy changes you want to make. Explore the world, go on an adventure or just leave the game.

[Redmagejoe]

It's been well over a month now since I said I was going to keep an eye on things before making my decision. Given a number of factors I won't get into the details of and seeing the way that the core philosophy was abandoned, I've quit playing and don't expect to come back any time soon. I doubt that they're going to reverse course on any of the egregious violations of vanilla design philosophy, like what they did to Subtlety Rogue and Arcane Mage, so I won't hold my breath.

Unfortunately, this also means that I have no intention of continuing to work on Turtle HD, but it's open source so I'm sure someone will pick it up and run with it.

[Captain4k]

I think I speak for the silent majority here when I say that I've really enjoyed CC2. I've literally asked players how they like their class since the changes and I haven't had anyone say they outright dislike them. Most people seem to be content for the most part. In fact, I think CC2 has breathed new life into the server. Prior to the changes, the population was hovering around 3.5k players, maxing at 4k during peak hours. Nowadays the average population is around 6-7k, reaching up to 8k players during peak. I'm sure there are others that share your opinion but evidence would suggest that your opinion isn't shared by the majority.

One thing I REALLY love about the changes is that I actually see spec variety when levelling now. People aren't being forced to level a specific way or with a specific spec like they used to. I see warriors levelling as prot, mages levelling as fire & arcane, paladins are levelling as melee holy, and shamans are levelling as enhance and tanking WAY more than they used to. CC2 has given players a lot more options than before to play their favourite classes exactly how they want to play them. The changes aren't perfect and some aspects I openly criticize, but I think most changes have certainly improved classes in areas where they were lacking.

Most of what I play seems to have been improved, or just nice stuff added to it. Still, can you call this a revamp? If you have played elsewhere where they have revamped the classes, you'd know what that looks like. I still think this is skirting the edge of that, but not quite there yet. So far I like it.

Agreed 100%. In comparison to WoW Cataclysm expansion changes, calling CC2 a complete revamp is incredibly disingenuous. Classes were not fundamentally overhauled and Turtle WoW has done a great job at ensuring that everything still feels "vanilla". Some people are just OCD and once they get used to something they like, don't like changes at all, good or bad.

[Atreidon]

ill share my insignificant opinion once again

Turtle wow is free
You enjoy the changes and the project, you keep playing

You dislike the changes and the way things are evolving
you thank everyone and move on with your life
You are not entitled to anything

Luckily, nowadays, there are several options to choose from
Crying every day won't change anything
Turtle project is moving forward stronger than ever, whether you like it or not
F Activision/Blizzard/Microsoft

PS - i'm not replying directly to you Bigsmerf

While Turtlewow is free, it does offer a relatively expensive cash shop with single items climbing towards 50€

Of course players who spent a lot of cash for ingame items do have weight when it comes to how turtle wow evolves. Saying "you can play it for free" is dishonest. The classchanges were completely blindsiding some players that did make larger purchases.

Twow has no "Refund and GTFO" button. Players who helped pay for CC2 absolutely have a right to criticism.

While there are other private servers, some of which are very good in their own right. Even if i vehemently disagree with many of turtles more recent changes, it is still a fantastic server with good performance, some wonderful extra content and many wonderful players we call friends.

Precisely because we love this server do we critizise class changes that dont respect what it was.

Pointing at playernumbers now is also inho a bit shortsighted. Players always flock to whats new. Overwatch 2 had a sizeable playerbase in the opening week. We will see if the classes are fun enough once novelty wears off.
There is noone that can convince me that slamspam is any more interesting than frostbolt spam which had to be mixed up with the same patch because it was boring. Players do play it because it does high dps and its new, not because it was a good change

[Voodoochile]

I think I speak for the silent majority here when I say that I've really enjoyed CC2. I've literally asked players how they like their class since the changes and I haven't had anyone say they outright dislike them. Most people seem to be content for the most part. In fact, I think CC2 has breathed new life into the server

You are quite literally referring to the REMAINING majority. It has been over a month and people who were not content with the changes, or tried them out and grew to dislike them, have logged off for the last time. The novelty these changes provide are a farcry from balance or a classic experience to claim to be classic+, and the classic crowd is leaving.

I've been sitting on the fence for long enough refusing to play my shaman since the changes, and then becoming discontent with my druid, warrior, and hunter, but now seems just as well to log off for good. It was a good year and a half, and I will miss it. Now to sadly crawl back to Blizzard or wait for Duskhaven to go full release or something.

[Darktifa]

Of course players who spent a lot of cash for ingame items do have weight when it comes to how turtle wow evolves

Do you have any way to prove this or it's just wishful thinking?

[Sinrek]

It's been well over a month now since I said I was going to keep an eye on things before making my decision. Given a number of factors I won't get into the details of and seeing the way that the core philosophy was abandoned, I've quit playing and don't expect to come back any time soon. I doubt that they're going to reverse course on any of the egregious violations of vanilla design philosophy, like what they did to Subtlety Rogue and Arcane Mage, so I won't hold my breath.

Unfortunately, this also means that I have no intention of continuing to work on Turtle HD, but it's open source so I'm sure someone will pick it up and run with it.

Same, same.

[Ataika]

Smol ball of haters are liking eachother.
Meanwhile cc2 enjoyers keep online high.

I've quit playing and don't expect to come back any time soon.

Damn dat good news
Bye

wait for Duskhaven to go full release

Why not project Epoch ?
Oh yeah

[Captain4k]

Now to sadly crawl back to Blizzard or wait for Duskhaven to go full release or something.

So you're complaining about Twows comparatively minor changes and your solution is to join the Duskhaven FULLY CUSTOMIZED server? You have to be trolling...

[Bigsmerf]

Now to sadly crawl back to Blizzard or wait for Duskhaven to go full release or something.

So you're complaining about Twows comparatively minor changes and your solution is to join the Duskhaven FULLY CUSTOMIZED server? You have to be trolling...

Unironically sounds kinda stupid to read lmao

Yeah- duskhaven is way more extreme in their additions for sure. Turtle is definitely doing a better job keeping things more tame compared to other places I've heard of, and I think that's why a lot of people have kinda disliked what we've been given recently.

[Bigsmerf]

ill share my insignificant opinion once again

Turtle wow is free
You enjoy the changes and the project, you keep playing

You dislike the changes and the way things are evolving
you thank everyone and move on with your life
You are not entitled to anything

Luckily, nowadays, there are several options to choose from
Crying every day won't change anything
Turtle project is moving forward stronger than ever, whether you like it or not
F Activision/Blizzard/Microsoft

PS - i'm not replying directly to you Bigsmerf

People leave reviews on free games all the time, man. I don't know what to tell you 'sides a reminder of the fact people are entitled to opinions on anything and everything.

[Darktifa]

People leave reviews on free games all the time, man. I don't know what to tell you 'sides a reminder of the fact people are entitled to opinions on anything and everything.

Let me rephrase it then
If you believe that your opinion has any kind of weight, just because you donated x amount of $$$
you are clearly delusional
Feel free to prove me wrong

[Bigsmerf]

People leave reviews on free games all the time, man. I don't know what to tell you 'sides a reminder of the fact people are entitled to opinions on anything and everything.

Let me rephrase it then
If you believe that your opinion has any kind of weight, just because you donated x amount of $$$
you are clearly delusional
Feel free to prove me wrong

Looks like we can both agree I'm pretty sane, then.


Feels a bit stupid to downplay any sort of criticism someone might have because... What? This is free? It's like telling me I can't say a piece of art doesn't really appeal to me or isn't done well because I didn't have to pay for it or

Also- funnily enough, I haven't put a penny into Twow whatsoever. And- to think I should have any -more- of a say (because the players do have influence on these things- take a look at the racial changes) on how it goes just because I paid for something is... A wee bit silly.

[Darktifa]

Feels a bit stupid to downplay any sort of criticism someone might have because... What? This is free? It's like telling me I can't say a piece of art doesn't really appeal to me or isn't done well because I didn't have to pay for it or

You are free to share your opinion and criticize
but ask yourself, does anyone from the Turtle team care?

Hypothetically speaking, Torta decides to close Turtle WoW tomorrow
Will your opinion against it matter?

Also- funnily enough, I haven't put a penny into Twow whatsoever. And- to think I should have any -more- of a say (because the players do have influence on these things- take a look at the racial changes) on how it goes just because I paid for something is... A wee bit silly.

Of course players who spent a lot of cash for ingame items do have weight when it comes to how turtle wow evolves

[Bigsmerf]

Feels a bit stupid to downplay any sort of criticism someone might have because... What? This is free? It's like telling me I can't say a piece of art doesn't really appeal to me or isn't done well because I didn't have to pay for it or

You are free to share your opinion and criticize
but ask yourself, does anyone from the Turtle team care?

Hypothetically speaking, Torta decides to close Turtle WoW tomorrow
Will your opinion against it matter?

Also- funnily enough, I haven't put a penny into Twow whatsoever. And- to think I should have any -more- of a say (because the players do have influence on these things- take a look at the racial changes) on how it goes just because I paid for something is... A wee bit silly.

Of course players who spent a lot of cash for ingame items do have weight when it comes to how turtle wow evolves

I'm fully aware the turtle team could hardly give two shits what I think. For the most part- I'm just sharing my displeasure with people who actually care to hear it.

Not touching whatever the bottom half of this's supposed to be. I've got a different take from someone I normally agree with? Okay? Is this a concept we're new to?

[Fizzler]

I think what the turtle team meant by not being able to revert all of cc2 is that they can’t just reset back to cc1. It seems more realistic that they do changes over time as you mentioned.

[Dannyp92]

They should be able to revert back to CC1 through proper GitHub use. Then they could re-implement updated changes gradually, making sure they fit the previously stated design philosophy. But they probably don't want to, as they have already invested a huge amount of hours into the class changes. Furthermore, it seems they are changing their design philosophy in order to attract a different audience (which annoys longtime fans).

[Sunken]

You are quite literally referring to the REMAINING majority. It has been over a month and people who were not content with the changes, or tried them out and grew to dislike them, have logged off for the last time. The novelty these changes provide are a farcry from balance or a classic experience to claim to be classic+, and the classic crowd is leaving.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the number of active players been the highest that it has ever been?

If it's the case that the people that didn't like the changes just left, then I guess they are the general minority.

[Crake]

especially looking at sub rogues

like what they did to Subtlety Rogue

I'm honestly not sure what people are talking about with sub rogue. As an avid sub rogue pvp enjoyer, the OG pvp build is 21/3/27

With the new talent changes, you literally have ALL the exact same benefits of your original talents PLUS MORE.

You have all the stealth talents for 5 points instead of 10, you get 100% improved sap for 2 talents, instead of 90% for 3, you get heightened senses FOR FREE, yes hemo now costs 3 talent points to get effectively what you had before, but with the above, you're still up 5 talent points, so things like blinding haze, smoke bomb, and irritating agent are entirely free pickups for you compared to old sub.

Meanwhile, in the assassination tree, for 23 points (since you've freed up 2 points from sub), you can pick up ALL the poison talents that were previously there (before you had to pick between either 40% resist dispel/20% damage, OR 10% application chance), AND you can go 2/2 improved EA, wheras before you were stuck with 1/2. Oh, and lets not forget that poisons also now scale with attack power as well.

So anyone complaining about sub rogue, I've literally no idea where your complaints are coming from, you quite literally have everything you had before PLUS more.

[Neechy]

There are always the same two braindead rebuttals to people (rightfully) critiquing turtle's more problematic changes:

1. "TuRtLe CaN dO wHaT tHeY wAnT - dOnT lIkE iT jOiN aNoThEr SeRvEr"
Yes they can do what they want. The issue is when there are drastic deviations from the game that players signed up for and invested countless hours into - it violates trust. People have already stopped playing because of CC2 and are rightfully bitter about it because they likely would not have started on the server if it was clear that it would succumb to this kind of scope creep with class changes. There is no other way to put it: after this patch it feels like a fundamentally different kind of server.

2. "No OnE cArEs WhAt YoU tHiNk YoU aRe A mInOrItY, tHe SiLeNt MaJoRiTy LiKeS CC2"
You can't say the silent majority like CC2, because they are *silent*. That's the point. All we can base things on is the vocal minority, and based on forum posts it appears the vocal minority is pretty critical of CC2 overall. If we want to see what the silent majority feels we would need to take a poll of as much of the player base as possible.

Someone ran a poll a few weeks back and it had 100+ respondents. The results were pretty split in the middle, where close to half of players wanted CC2 reverted, either to CC1 or earlier, and then even among the other half who was pro-CC2, there was still a subset that wanted tweaks because they realized a number of the changes were problematic. Thus, that left a small minority of players who didn't mind CC2 at all. While this is of course a small sample size it still helps to illustrate the divide between turtle's vision for class design and what players actually want to see in vanilla+.

In conclusion, people do care what CC2-critics think because this forum is full of countless support for maintaining vanilla design integrity, and the devs also care to an extent because they are making constant tweaks to talents and abilities after players have demonstrated why they are problematic. Yet the fundamental problem remains that a level of trust has been severed between the turtle and its historic player base because CC2 has overstepped the scope of class changes that the devs themselves stated they would stay within.

It's just sad to see turtle leaning in the direction of blizz SoD vanilla+ class design (e.g. abilities like Carve, overall player power creep, etc) despite the fact that SoD has been hemorrhaging its popularity for the very reason that the majority of *classic vanilla wow players* just want a vanilla+ that is focused on CONTENT and NOT overhauling class design. As the title says, we need tweaks - not revamps.

[Voodoochile]

Now to sadly crawl back to Blizzard or wait for Duskhaven to go full release or something.

So you're complaining about Twows comparatively minor changes and your solution is to join the Duskhaven FULLY CUSTOMIZED server? You have to be trolling...

Sorry for not being a classic andy. I play all versions of wow, the world and the lore is what draws me and each version has its niche. Twow as it exists right now is no longer classic+ to me, it is Wrath without any QoL. Just like how Cata feels like Retail without any QoL. It isn't satisfying to play anymore, and there are versions of wow, including other private server, who simply do this new version of Twow, or can do it, better. So I am waiting for Duskhaven to drop full release, and for SoD to release their Scarlet Crusade raid.

[Ataika]

You can't say the silent majority like CC2, because they are *silent*.

Its not like online data is silient, its pretty open.
And it shows clearly - people like these changes.
OR changes are not that drastically awful to deter people away as forum vocal minority claims.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the number of active players been the highest that it has ever been?

yes you are completely right

and the classic crowd is leaving.

Oh yeah sure
Facts are - onlin eis high, dungeons are popping, battlegrouns start more often, the av every day (previously i logged eu prime time and av was mostly dead or 15vs15 outside of its day), i play warsong outside of its day instead of waiting for 3 hours. Now i see more hybrids playing because they became more fun, more druids rambling around, disc priests can defend themselves etc
Outside of few miscalculations (shaman nerf, scattershot shared cooldown, hamstring fe) class changes are good and refreshing

[Mikhail420]

Neechy, we in fact actually can base things on the silent majority because statistics dont lie, the population has been on an upwards trajectory since CC2, and to expand on what i said previously, most of the playerbase doesnt even interact on the forums, they actually play and enjoy the game. Its just a few very stubborn people that have made countless negative posts about CC2 how just because you now can press an additional button in a rotation we have suddenly become retail wow... I love vanilla wow for its sandbox old school mmorpg feel, but the classes and the different specs in vanilla are just very flawed and rushed, and even the OG wow devs understood that and tried to address that in TBC. You can either accept that, or you and the other individuals that keep making these posts and keep threatening/announcing your departure like this is an airport or something, can find a server that fits better with your vision. I bet the server population would drop by 8 people, but i think we would recover

[Neechy]

Neechy, we in fact actually can base things on the silent majority because statistics dont lie, the population has been on an upwards trajectory since CC2, and to expand on what i said previously, most of the playerbase doesnt even interact on the forums, they actually play and enjoy the game. Its just a few very stubborn people that have made countless negative posts about CC2 how just because you now can press an additional button in a rotation we have suddenly become retail wow... I love vanilla wow for its sandbox old school mmorpg feel, but the classes and the different specs in vanilla are just very flawed and rushed, and even the OG wow devs understood that and tried to address that in TBC. You can either accept that, or you and the other individuals that keep making these posts and keep threatening/announcing your departure like this is an airport or something, can find a server that fits better with your vision. I bet the server population would drop by 8 people, but i think we would recover

I don't necessarily disagree with your points. But without polling we can't really gauge sentiments about changes like CC2. Sure you can look at # of players coming in and staying, but how do you attribute that to CC2 vs. say, all the new content? AS with a platform like Twitter, how can you say that people staying on turtle are necessarily happy with the changes vs. the sunk cost fallacy of establishing yourself here and/or the lack of strong alternatives?

Also tired of people looking at these critiques as simply complaining. It is precisely because we admire turtle's work overall that we bother to engage in feedback. We want the server to be sustainable and avoid the pitfalls that other servers and blizzard have made. That's it.

We have made our praise for other aspects of the server clear as well; but as with any reviews, people are more likely to leave feedback when there are issues/concerns. And no, a minority of people posting on the forums does not mean the rest of the players have no problem with the game. Forums only attract the types of people who post. The rest of people may have opinions but just don't post for whatever reason. If their opinion is negative enough, they may choose different servers, etc.

I think it is still too early to look at player statistics and conclude that yes CC2 will be a sustainable direction for the server. If I had to put money on it, I would say turtle continues to have a bright future among vanilla+ servers - but I would attribute that to the strength of its new content, rather than class design.

[Whalemilk]

[Caixiao99999]

I’m not a fan of the CC2 changes. The constant adjustments make it hard to tell what the final version will even look like, and the spell scaling feels all over the place. Sure, every class has gotten stronger, and there’s some novelty in that, but all I really wanted was a simple “Vanilla+” experience—just some tweaks to spell values or gear, nothing drastic.

I’ve been playing here for a long time and have invested so much time and effort, so leaving isn’t easy. But these major changes feel overwhelming, and honestly, I’m not enjoying the game as much as I used to. It’s hard to reconcile the frustration with the attachment I still feel.

[Ataika]

I’m not a fan of the CC2 changes. The constant adjustments make it hard to tell what the final version will even look like, and the spell scaling feels all over the place. Sure, every class has gotten stronger, and there’s some novelty in that, but all I really wanted was a simple “Vanilla+” experience—just some tweaks to spell values or gear, nothing drastic.

I’ve been playing here for a long time and have invested so much time and effort, so leaving isn’t easy. But these major changes feel overwhelming, and honestly, I’m not enjoying the game as much as I used to. It’s hard to reconcile the frustration with the attachment I still feel.

what class are you playing ?

[Twospooky]

I don't want to re-learn the game. I want to play the 20 year old triple-A greatest game of all time with tweaks such as boomkin allowed and bloodvine set gone. I feel it's no longer that triple-A game, it's now a 2 month old indy developer game with no scope in a democratic testing phase.
The appeal of the server was that it's influenced by warcraft 3 and that parts of the game which were closed were opened.

[Turbosaxophonic]

Also tired of people looking at these critiques as simply complaining. It is precisely because we admire turtle's work overall that we bother to engage in feedback. We want the server to be sustainable and avoid the pitfalls that other servers and blizzard have made. That's it.

I'm reminded of a quote from one of Bungie's developers:

"Like - anger is not the OPPOSITE of loving a game. Loving and Hating a game are like 2 degrees off from each other, and they both come from passion - from people who are HIGHLY ENGAGED. The opposite of Loving a game - the thing that will kill your game - is Apathy."

I see passion in the words of this patch's harshest critics, frustration that this server is so close in so many ways but misses so many marks, I see people who would truly love this server if it weren't for its worst pain points, and I see people who still love it despite them. To continue providing criticism and feedback this persistently requires a sense of dedication to this game and its community. It's the people who first read the changelog and simply left who were apathetic, I see apathy and ignorance in the words of those who defend the game in its current state with the depressing rhetoric of "stop complaining. the game wasn't even that good to begin with, the team made it better. they don't want to hear your feedback, go back to classic if you don't like it".

Frankly, it's disgusting to see an established modding dev share his dissatisfaction with the clear change of direction for this server and to make the decision to move on, a decision that's not made lightly after investing in and contributing so much to this community, only to be met with a snarky "that's good news, bye". I am sick to death of the tribalism of "haters vs. enjoyers" poisoning these discussions when it should be clear that everyone wants this game to be the best thing it can be. Why is it that those who most staunchly defend this patch do so in such bad faith? Why should people who either don't understand or don't care about the base game get to have such influence in its future?