Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Manolothegreat
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Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Manolothegreat » Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:11 am

The recent patch notes state:
Goblin Brainwashing Device now incurs a personal 10-minute cooldown after use. This cooldown persists through death and continues to count while offline.
While we understand balance changes are necessary, the reasoning for this adjustment to a significant Quality of Life (QoL) feature is unclear. Could you please consider reverting this change? Here’s why:
  1. Essential in Raids: Many raids require players to adjust their specializations depending on specific encounters (e.g., Twins, Razuvious, Spider Wing, and Four Horsemen). Imposing a 10-minute cooldown on the Goblin Brainwashing Device is restrictive and may lead to frustrating delays for those needing quick role shifts for optimal gameplay.
  2. Limits on Experimentation: With the release of CC2 and the addition of new specializations, players are eager to explore and test these new builds. Reducing the accessibility of the Brainwashing Device counteracts this openness to experimentation, which goes against the spirit of this update.
  3. No Reported Exploits or Issues: There haven’t been any reports of exploits or unintended mechanics related to the Goblin Brainwashing Device. This change seems sudden and lacks player demand or a specific technical reason.
  4. Unnecessary Frustration: The Goblin Brainwashing Device is arguably one of the best additions to Turtle WoW, providing a level of flexibility that enhances the gameplay experience for countless players. QoL improvements like this are valuable for keeping gameplay smooth and enjoyable, and nerfing such a feature without a clear justification may only serve to frustrate players, impacting overall satisfaction with the game.
  5. Accidental Misclicks: It’s easy to accidentally select the wrong spec (e.g., choosing Spec #3 instead of #4). With the 10-minute cooldown, a simple misclick would result in an unnecessary wait, which can be especially frustrating during time-sensitive raid setups.
Reconsidering this change would maintain flexibility for players while supporting the positive, experimental approach of CC2’s design.

Thank you for considering this feedback. smiling_turtle
Last edited by Manolothegreat on Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Elisleris
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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Elisleris » Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:19 am

In additional I can add case, when I missclicked during selection of required spec (f.e. select spec No.3 instead of No.4). As result I will wait 10 min for nothing

Manolothegreat
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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Manolothegreat » Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:25 am

Elisleris wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:19 am In additional I can add case, when I missclicked during selection of required spec (f.e. select spec No.3 instead of No.4). As result I will wait 10 min for nothing
added to the original post, thanks
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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Grizb37 » Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:30 am

Good riddance imo, this is a healthy change, the vanilla game was not designed around being able to change your spec at will every time you see fit, the cool down is a good change.

It devalue stuff like feral, that's designed to be a tank/dps spec all in one that can quickly switch depending on the situation.... With how it worked a warrior could just switch from tank spec to dps spec and overshadow a druid.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Bahamutxd » Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:34 am

Can't tell how many times I changed to an spec believing its something different than what I thought. This is more common on alters/characters I don't know that well or when I want to test stuff. Do I really need to wait 10 mins now?

When patch drops I'll need to reorder my bars and update my action bars addon. What an incredibly stupid way to waste my time.

Device already lets you reset out of combat, resets your mana to 0 and stuns you, whats the issue with allowing players to use it again? Atleast reduce that cooldown to a min or two max - if people is exploiting this somehow try another fix - don't penalize everyone for their miss behaving on such a good QoL change.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Hoodywood » Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:46 am

Absolutely agree with this, lately Twow is restricting any kind of fun we have and this is another restrict

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Xudo » Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:59 am

Can you show what kind of difference in specs do you make for individual encounters?
For example for warrior tanks.
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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Manolothegreat » Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:08 am

Xudo wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:59 am Can you show what kind of difference in specs do you make for individual encounters?
For example for warrior tanks.
For example, in 4h we need 8 tanks and 12 healers, which we don't need in any other fight. In Razu one of our healer priests has to respec to shadow for MC. In the spider wing, we also need a lot of tanks. Locks need to change to tank twin emperors, etc

This change is just annoying scared_turtle_head
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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Sivent » Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:10 am

There is already downtime when someone has to change spec, ask for a bank, change the gear, rebuff if necessary, consumables, regen mana, change bars. So instead of having 2-3 mins now we will have to wait 12-13 mins if the guy misclick or something. So why? What is the objective of this change? Be more restrictive? There is no problem with the actual system so why make it worst?

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Stainedglass » Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:27 am

I agree, they should not change stuff that can be bought with donations at all. It's like a person buys a car and a year later the manufacturer takes it away and replaces it with a motorbike.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Drubarrymooer » Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:43 am

Stainedglass wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:27 am I agree, they should not change stuff that can be bought with donations at all. It's like a person buys a car and a year later the manufacturer takes it away and replaces it with a motorbike.
We were just talking about this during raid last night. If something is available for purchase on the gift shop, it shouldn't be changed like this. The multiple specs being saved under 1 talent point was a bug, so I can understand that change. This one, however, not so much.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Bahamutxd » Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:47 am

Stainedglass wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:27 am I agree, they should not change stuff that can be bought with donations at all. It's like a person buys a car and a year later the manufacturer takes it away and replaces it with a motorbike.
Completely forgot about that one. This is a major issue for anyone that got the device and now its getting changed like this.

Should at the very least allow refunds

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Cryptos » Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:22 pm

This change will only undermine the efficiency of a raid and the player who uses it. Anyone who goes boss to boss in less than 10 minutes would be forced to do an encounter in the wrong spec, almost like a punishment for using it.

We have multiple players who use this for 4h(druid included) and they would all be forced to fight the next encounter in the wrong spec or wait 10 minutes, which is never going to be an option.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Cryptos » Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:25 pm

I agree that if the change is made, refunds must be made available.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Biteyou » Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:38 pm

Cryptos wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:22 pm This change will only undermine the efficiency of a raid and the player who uses it. Anyone who goes boss to boss in less than 10 minutes would be forced to do an encounter in the wrong spec, almost like a punishment for using it.

We have multiple players who use this for 4h(druid included) and they would all be forced to fight the next encounter in the wrong spec or wait 10 minutes, which is never going to be an option.
I mean, I would make the argument there that if you know that they need to respec for 4 horseman, you respec right at the Gothik kill and then by the time 4HM is done, even if it's a fast kill, your goblin washing device will be refreshed.

However, I think a better explanation from the developers on their thought process behind the brainwashing device is warranted. I can only speculate on the change, but it's either to incentivize people to play one way during a raid, or prevent degenerate gameplay for speed running or efficiency purposes.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Geojak » Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:39 pm

good nerf, dont revert it. 10 minutes cd is arleady plenty short. i dont support min maxx resepccing before every boss encounter. ever 10 minutes gives you enough room but still protects us, the players from ourselfes, pushing this to the extreme

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Stackemhigh » Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:57 pm

This change will just add useless waiting time for all guilds that are trying to speedrun (that's more than 15 guilds). There is nothing gained here. Also people paid for this, refund them immediately if it's gonna be nerfed like this.
If there's an exploit with the current system, fix it but don't make the game shit for everyone by doing this artificial time wasting.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Templar85 » Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:20 pm

Maybe make it you can use 3 times maximum in a raid instead of a 10 min waiting time?

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:54 pm

This is a good change. In Vanilla, you didn't magically change spec in 20 seconds before specific raid encounters. That's not a requirement to beat the game, that's a cheeze which got normalized.

I agree that experimentation will happen. But if you don't even play a spec 10 min before moving on, did experimentation really happen?

For reported exploits: a fury warrior suddenly learning how to become a fury prot for one fight then in 10 seconds becoming fury again or a holy paladin mysteriously becoming a prot pala for one big pull was the exploit itself. You can still use the device in raids but its usage got more limited.

I don't wanna sound rude but if someone's gameplay experience is ruined because he/she can't respec in less than 10 min then priorities are weird for that person.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Drubarrymooer » Wed Oct 30, 2024 4:13 pm

Akos1896 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:54 pm I don't wanna sound rude but if someone's gameplay experience is ruined because he/she can't respec in less than 10 min then priorities are weird for that person.
That's pretty harsh for just having different gameplay styles. I'm not a sweatlord, but I enjoy dpsing and tanking and there are some fights where you want and, in some cases, need to respec and there's less than 10 mins in-between. Its literally forcing some people to just sit and wait or just not be of any value to that particular fight.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Atreidon » Wed Oct 30, 2024 4:17 pm

The people who claim the cd improves hybrids in raids. For one the next patch modifies many of the hybrid specs to where they are less good at flexing functions anymore. Elemental will get worse at healing with the chainheal changes, feral is having to choose between many cat or bear talents, smite priest is now a pure dps spec and no longer offers nearly as much heal utility. On the tank front with fuey-prot and prot-ret its the same story.

Dualspec was added. Now its here to stay. Having the ability to change specs at whim anywhere you are does kill hybrids for good. Adding a small cd doesnt bring them back, it just annoys the people willing to do whichever job their raid/party needs at a time

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Grizb37 » Wed Oct 30, 2024 4:25 pm

Akos1896 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:54 pm This is a good change. In Vanilla, you didn't magically change spec in 20 seconds before specific raid encounters. That's not a requirement to beat the game, that's a cheeze which got normalized.

I agree that experimentation will happen. But if you don't even play a spec 10 min before moving on, did experimentation really happen?

For reported exploits: a fury warrior suddenly learning how to become a fury prot for one fight then in 10 seconds becoming fury again or a holy paladin mysteriously becoming a prot pala for one big pull was the exploit itself. You can still use the device in raids but its usage got more limited.

I don't wanna sound rude but if someone's gameplay experience is ruined because he/she can't respec in less than 10 min then priorities are weird for that person.
This for sure. I'm glad the Devs added a cool down and hopefully they don't listen to the cry babies in this post and revert it.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Oct 30, 2024 4:30 pm

Sorry, I didn't want to sound harsh.
I rephrase.
In my opinion, brainwashing spam is an exploit which got normalized by people getting used to it. It indeed helps at certain raid encounters when you suddenly need 1 more tank or heal.
Since it's very convenient, people got used to it and speedrun guilds started to rely on it.
But at the end of the day, it's an exploit.
'Look at me, I'm a fury now, I've spent all my life to learn how to maximize damage with my two weapons.'
10 sec later
'I am a tank, all my life experience is directed towards protecting my teammates.'
After a 3 min. long fight.
'I am a fury warrior, been trained to maximize damage all my life.'
In the old days people's solution used to be to ask a fury warrior to use a shield or to ask a hybrid DPS to heal if you needed a different team comp. It was less optimal of course but was viable and thematically made sense.
Now you're more or less expected at more serious guilds to have a brainwash and to use it so that team comp is always the most optimal for the upcoming fight.
I know, it makes things slightly faster and easier. But for me it breaks consistency.

What maddens me (strong word, it's a bit of an exaggeration) is people seeing that a QoL exploit got more limited and acting in a certain way. It is still there, people can still respec but at least with some consequences, like needing to fury-prot some trash before changing back to fury. When people are like 'how will raids be possible like this' or 'I demand my money back', I feel the need to write something.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Atreidon » Wed Oct 30, 2024 4:35 pm

Call it feature, exploit or whatever. The damage was done when it was first added. With a 10min cd, its not gonna get abused less, its just gonna be more annoying.
instead of speccing tank for one boss and respec to dps after it, you play tank for one boss and the trashmobs afterwards and respec to dps in front of the next boss.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Krotux » Wed Oct 30, 2024 4:43 pm

Atreidon wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 4:35 pm Call it feature, exploit or whatever. The damage was done when it was first added. With a 10min cd, its not gonna get abused less, its just gonna be more annoying.
instead of speccing tank for one boss and respec to dps after it, you play tank for one boss and the trashmobs afterwards and respec to dps in front of the next boss.
It's not meant to stop tanks switching to dps. It's meant to stop half the raid switching specs every boss basically now that there are multiple specs for each class and they each have pros and cons. It's just there to prevent abuse that will likely begin with cc2. If you're using the right way, you won't be affected, like you stated.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Nahath » Wed Oct 30, 2024 5:02 pm

Atreidon wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 4:17 pm The people who claim the cd improves hybrids in raids. For one the next patch modifies many of the hybrid specs to where they are less good at flexing functions anymore. Elemental will get worse at healing with the chainheal changes, feral is having to choose between many cat or bear talents, smite priest is now a pure dps spec and no longer offers nearly as much heal utility. On the tank front with fuey-prot and prot-ret its the same story.

Dualspec was added. Now its here to stay. Having the ability to change specs at whim anywhere you are does kill hybrids for good. Adding a small cd doesnt bring them back, it just annoys the people willing to do whichever job their raid/party needs at a time
This is the strongest argument here. Everyone else is essentially just showing a preference for the direction of the game. Either (a): the game should focus on QoL and make it easy to play the way we want, or (b): your character is actually supposed to be a character with strengths and weaknesses: not an amorphous blob that becomes optimized for everything they do. These are unfortunately in strong conflict with each other.

The point I like here is that if the new talents are pushing people out of flexible builds, then they're also pushing you toward option (a) above, while the 10 minute cooldown (as well as other controversial brainwashing changes in the past) are pushing toward option (b).
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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Turboman » Wed Oct 30, 2024 7:07 pm

Grizb37 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:30 am Good riddance imo, this is a healthy change, the vanilla game was not designed around being able to change your spec at will every time you see fit, the cool down is a good change.

It devalue stuff like feral, that's designed to be a tank/dps spec all in one that can quickly switch depending on the situation.... With how it worked a warrior could just switch from tank spec to dps spec and overshadow a druid.
Vanilla this vanilla that, piss off already.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Grizb37 » Wed Oct 30, 2024 7:26 pm

Turboman wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 7:07 pm
Grizb37 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:30 am Good riddance imo, this is a healthy change, the vanilla game was not designed around being able to change your spec at will every time you see fit, the cool down is a good change.

It devalue stuff like feral, that's designed to be a tank/dps spec all in one that can quickly switch depending on the situation.... With how it worked a warrior could just switch from tank spec to dps spec and overshadow a druid.
Vanilla this vanilla that, piss off already.
Lmao. Enjoy your 10 min CD.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Micfild » Wed Oct 30, 2024 7:49 pm

I would like to suggest for the device not to cause a CD when used in major cities, as respec is already available in there and it would just be a nuisance overall.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Fugus » Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:56 pm

If a Warrior can go Fury > Prot > Prot/Fury between on a whim, that kinda kills Ferals entire niche while being better than them in it.

I personally see TBC as WoW at it's peak. The more I am seeing, the more it feels like they are going the way of the other expansions.

I kinda like the ability to respec on a whim but at the same time, that destroys the entire druid niche, especially combined with how they are trying to destroy the hybrid nature of it forcing you to specialize more.

I loved being able to be the switch hitter of the raid and even if I wasn't topping the charts I was more than earning my spot going between tank, DPS and spot heal some as needed. Sometimes in the same pull if I gear for a hybrid approach and could still be respectable at it (Until endgame where the scaling broke).

Don't want to destroy hybrid use and I don't want to destroy the hybrid spec and nature of it.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Drubarrymooer » Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:02 pm

Fugus wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:56 pm If a Warrior can go Fury > Prot > Prot/Fury between on a whim, that kinda kills Ferals entire niche while being better than them in it.

I personally see TBC as WoW at it's peak. The more I am seeing, the more it feels like they are going the way of the other expansions.

I kinda like the ability to respec on a whim but at the same time, that destroys the entire druid niche, especially combined with how they are trying to destroy the hybrid nature of it forcing you to specialize more.

I loved being able to be the switch hitter of the raid and even if I wasn't topping the charts I was more than earning my spot going between tank, DPS and spot heal some as needed. Sometimes in the same pull if I gear for a hybrid approach and could still be respectable at it (Until endgame where the scaling broke).

Don't want to destroy hybrid use and I don't want to destroy the hybrid spec and nature of it.
There are fairly delineating talents between feral cat and feral bear in the new patch. Not being able to effectively switch specs makes ferals less useful in raid environments.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Akalix » Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:28 pm

Manolothegreat wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:11 am
  1. No Reported Exploits or Issues: There haven’t been any reports of exploits or unintended mechanics related to the Goblin Brainwashing Device. This change seems sudden and lacks player demand or a specific technical reason.
This was actually one of the reasons this change was made.

However, it was also made for design purposes--though those are for others to discuss, not myself, as I was not directly involved in the change.
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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Fugus » Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:33 pm

Drubarrymooer wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:02 pmThere are fairly delineating talents between feral cat and feral bear in the new patch. Not being able to effectively switch specs makes ferals less useful in raid environments.
Part of what I was talking about, the less hybrid they become, the less they match the games original setup. I LIKED being the hybrid and the switch hitter. I HATED what they did to Feral in WotLK. Even topping the DPS charts it wasn't near as fun to me. They turned my cat into a bastardized rogue DPS racing for instant healing procs and actively ignored the bear form for PvP and was near useless for PvE while tanking spec was useless as Cat form outside of stealth and dash. And the further expansions just made it worse

And druids were the only class that kept my attention in the game as the rest just got dull to me. If they remove the hybrid nature of them, they remove much of the fun of them to me.

The other part is how this actually removes the niche from druids some with warriors effectively becoming the new feral in raids with better tools for melee DPS and Tank.

I don't want to go back to the WotLK setup, I waited from the start of WotLK all the way to just before ICC to release before I finally quit waiting for it to become fun again.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Wloggyers » Sat Nov 02, 2024 4:34 pm

Yep, this 10 min CD feels like a random nerf pulled out of the air for no reason. Please revert!

- You arrive to raid, especially with PUGs, supposed to heal, leader goes, sry you gotta DPS instead. Stuff like this happens often.

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Re: Reconsidering the Goblin Brainwashing Device nerf: a key Quality of Life feature

Post by Bigsmerf » Sat Nov 02, 2024 5:28 pm

Wloggyers wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 4:34 pm Yep, this 10 min CD feels like a random nerf pulled out of the air for no reason. Please revert!

- You arrive to raid, especially with PUGs, supposed to heal, leader goes, sry you gotta DPS instead. Stuff like this happens often.
Then just change to DPS lmao. It's a 10 minute CD my guy, not complete deletion of the item altogether.
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