Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Werefox
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Werefox » Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:07 pm

Geojak wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 7:35 am
In that case, why don't you play retail or maybe a legion private server where such kind of time wasting buffs like 30 min preist were axed long time ago.
Remember how I asked you to identify a specific issue and you just kept being silly instead? Well, here is your answer: because this is not an issue.

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Daedalus007
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Daedalus007 » Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:53 pm

The kinds of replies in here are disappointing but not surprising.
The original wow devs themselves have said that the 5 minute blessings was a mistake and they should've been made longer by default. Greater blessings/buffs for all classes arrived in a later patch in vanilla; they weren't there at the start. So yeah, try buffing an entire raid one by one with 5 minute buffs lmao.

Statement: Paladins will sell buffs outside of dungeons/raids
Counterpoint: No other class with long buffs like Mages or arguably even Priests does this; this isn't going to be a thing.

Statement: Paladin buffs aren't necessary to play the game.
Counterpoint: Paladin buffs in raiding are as important if not more important than those of other classes; to allow the buffs to expire mid-combat (which can happen on longer fights and boss fights) is a detriment to the entire raid, especially your warriors who won't get kings for that stamina boost, your healers without wisdom for mana regen. Just imagine that for a moment and go make a raid without any paladins (or shamans) and tell me how it goes.
Then go argue against the banishment of world buffs from the raiding meta and try to argue they are needed because 'that is how it used to be'. Good luck with that. Changes happen and increased buff durations deserves to be one of them.

Statement: 5 minute buffs are fine.
Counterpoint: They aren't ok and they are annoying and need to be increased like in later expansions. The devs were able to update and fix their mistake but we aren't limited to 'pure classic' as this is a custom-classic server not just 'classic'. Compare this to Season of Discovery if you must, not 'vanilla' classic.
I'm not even talking about soloing, but about helping others who are running/riding past me as a way to show appreciation and support for the community. This is an MMO with a community focus rather than a selfish 'me me me' attitude that I'm seeing a lot of within the replies here.

Statement: Paladin buffs should be increased in mana cost alongside other buffs.
Counterpoint: Nope; other buff spells should be reduced in mana cost, specifically the priest ones that end up draining all their mana pretty easily. It is kinda terrible to waste time like that in raids as it serves no legitimate purpose; it only results in frustration for the priests and for the players asking for priest buffs in group content like raiding.
Manletow wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 9:43 pm
*snip*
Your pro-Shaman anti-Paladin bias is readily apparent to anyone who's even a casual observer of your post history on these forums. You aren't welcome in this thread and your contributions are to be ignored, negated, and dismissed like the troll you are. Shoo and go away.

Werefox
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Werefox » Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:09 pm

Daedalus007 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:53 pm
The original wow devs themselves have said
"The original devs" are ~5 different teams that would say many mutually exclusive things at different times. You need to be more specific. Especially considering that some of these explicitly aimed to sabotage the work of their predecessors, and in particular to turn paladins into pure healbots with low self esteem. Unfortunately, this plan almost worked as we see in this very thread.

If you want to talk the original original - ALL of the blessings were intended to be extremely short and powerful. E.g. Wisdom would be on par with Innervate. And this is why they are mutually exclusive. But it did not work like that for balance and action economy concerns.
Daedalus007 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:53 pm
Statement: Paladin buffs aren't necessary to play the game.
Except, of course, nobody said that. Stop strawmanning, maybe?
Daedalus007 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:53 pm
Statement: 5 minute buffs are fine.
Counterpoint: They aren't ok and they are annoying
Only if you practice them wrong way and then try to pile up on the people who figured out how to do it without getting carpal tunnel syndrome.
Daedalus007 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:53 pm
Statement: Paladin buffs should be increased in mana cost alongside other buffs.
Newsflash: mana cost of spells is proportional to their duration. Just the things we discover in this 20 y.o. game.
Daedalus007 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:53 pm
specifically the priest ones that end up draining all their mana pretty easily.
This is why they were introduced in the first place.

Akos1896
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Akos1896 » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:20 pm

While I don't approve OP's way of communication, he made a fair point in my opinion when he answered the pala buff vs priest buff problem.
Leveled a healer priest in TWOW until lvl 60 and while buffing is an interesting and strong toolkit at the priest's hand, there are some design problems:
* They are expensive as hell
* Until lategame versions, you have to put them up 1 by 1 on a medium duration (which changes to long duration with the lategame versions)
* Every time someone dies, buffs are cleared

These things don't sound bad by themselves but they have serious implications.
1. Dungeon team arrives, people wanna start but you say wait. You buff up 3 people with stamina, drink to full, buff up 2 people with stamina, drink to full, spirit buff time, drink to full, proclaim your champion. You could argue that certain classes don't need the spirit buff and you would be right. But then you get the random hunters and rogues demanding it mid dungeon. Been there, seen that.
It just takes away a bunch of time unnecessarily.
2. Keeping it up, specially if people die is costly. You have 3 ways to do so. You 1) ask for a random 3x full drink break every 30 minutes which is added annoyance for everyone 2) you use your inner focus on CD to keep everyone buffed around. This sounds good on paper but then you don't have that extra free heal when the party needs it. Inner focus was designed to squeeze in one last heal, using it for buffs is kinda abusing it 3) you just randomly buff someone when you feel you have enough mana to get the party going. Usually results in someone dying because you are oom.
3. At raids this can be really painful. Let's say you go to a smaller raid, 20 men MC and you are the only priest (sometimes happens). You buff up 4 groups with 2 kinds of buffs (sometimes 3) and everytime someone dies (since those pugs will not sit down and wait patiently until everyone is at 100% mana) you have a dilemma. Either buffing up the dead or making sure you have enough mana to heal the next pull. Not good design.

Reagents for high-level versions of buffs are another story. I don't like them but they are not strictly related here.

I could see base pala buffs being turned into 15 min and lvl 60 ones into 30 min with some added mana cost (not much).
In the meantime, priest buff costs could even be halved. Would only result in better gameplay experience.
At the end of the day, at raids you would have the somewhat cheaper 30 min pala buffs and the somewhat more expensive, 60 min priest buffs (neither would danger you of being oom).

Shamans are a similar topic here but are hard to handle. They basically need to put down 2-4 party buffs every time the team is moving. Following our concept (making buffs more efficient) would consider lowering totem costs too to keep up this trend and maybe increasing totem range.

Can't speak about druids, never leveled a druid to high level.

Biteyou
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Biteyou » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:57 pm

Damn this thread is all over the place. It's pretty simple, 15 minute buffs for a buff sucks ass. Increase it to 30 minutes and increase the mana cost. It's not that hard of a concept. Paladins selling buffing services? Just leave the normal blessings the same or change it to at least 10 minutes long at the minimum.

Werefox
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Werefox » Tue Jun 11, 2024 11:24 pm

Akos1896 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:20 pm
In the meantime, priest buff costs could even be halved. Would only result in better gameplay experience.
/sigh...

No, it won't.

All the things you can do in a game largely fall into one of two categories:
1. Decisions that you get to make and that are (with some luck) the source of your game enjoyment a.k.a fun.
2. Non-decisions (chores) that developers impose on you for their own (sinister, no doubt) purposes. Mostly they serve to dictate the pacing of content consumption. Or - putting it bluntly - to waste your time.

And, when it comes to priest buffs, it works. Just like you describe.

Now. You want to trivialize the mana cost, and that leaves us with exactly what?
- A non-decision
- That also fails as a time sink

With that in mind, please explain why have this spell at all? It's a waste of keybind. Just give everyone permanent level appropriate Stamina buff and forget it ever existed. And I believe that is precisely what they eventually did in later versions of WoW. Ask Geojak if it resulted in better gameplay experience.

(Before you respond something along the lines of "But I don't want them to waste my time!" - pacing is important. Any movie you like can be reduced to 5 min cram version without losing much of the plot, but do you think it would be better than the 2-3 hour original?)

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Daedalus007
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Daedalus007 » Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:43 am

Werefox wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 11:24 pm
*snip*
You sound like one of those who are on the 'no changes' camp for WoW Classic. Unfortunately you and everyone like you lost that fight pretty badly and seem to still be licking your wounds by coming onto CUSTOM VANILLA private servers demanding the same thing. We have high elves and GOBLINS running around so 'no changes' is a bit silly at this point.

You have yet to make one meaningful reasonable rational argument to justify keeping things as they are.
I've made multiple 'counterpoints' in my previous post to every complaint brought up about extending durations.

So I'll TLDR it for those who may not have read the whole thread.
-Increase ALL basic 'default' Paladin buff durations to at least 30 mins
-Increase ALL the 'Greater' Paladin buff durations to at least 60 mins
-Reduce buffing mana costs for our fellow users of the light aka Priests so that they can fully buff a raid/party without going OOM. A flat 50% buff cost reduction across the board would be a good start.
-Shaman totems affect EVERYONE (party or not) around them who is either the same faction (Horde) or in party/raid with them. Reduce ALL totem mana costs by 50%.
-My primary rationale to do this (especially for Paladins) is for increasing community ties, RP, and social aspects which is what 'Turtle WoW' should be about compared to every other private server out there.

When a priest or mage buffs someone that person feels VERY happy and thankful (mage buff is still useful for non-mana users as intellect can increase how fast you level weapon skills). When a paladin does a 5 minute buff on someone it results in either confusion or laughter. Five minutes? Why bother? It is this 'why bother' mentality I want to eliminate. Paladins are still a 'support DPS' class and as support we should have more than 5 minute blessings.

-----

Werefox, you keep talking about 'decisions' but you don't understand that THIS IS NOT VANILLA AND WILL NEVER BE VANILLA. Again we have playable high elves and goblins. This is NOT vanilla. If you want vanilla this is NOT the server for you. This is a CUSTOM Classic+ style of server. These types of QoL decisions have already been made in favor of the players. Stuff like adding in Guild Bank NPCs to Stormwind & Orgrimmar. Stuff like allowing client mods that increase visual distance and reduce the 'fog' that inhibits visibility. Stuff like changing/adding in certain spells and abilities (baseline non-talented Consecration for Paladins, 'Champion' capstone ability for Holy Priests instead of the useless Lightwell, Tree form for Resto Druids rather than the near-useless 'Swiftmend', etc).

There is no 'decision' on whether or not you buff people in a raid. If you want to keep your raid spot you do the buffs and refresh them whenever necessary or you find yourself outside of the raid. If you're in a dungeon and refuse to buff you find yourself outside of that dungeon (or alone in that dungeon) instead. Being anti-social by trying to frame buffing as a 'decision' is the most bass-ackwards nonsensical garbage I've read in a long time.

Hybrids like Paladin/Shaman/Druid are not 'just' healbots. They can use all 3 specs even in raids and do pretty well at it. Warriors are not the 'only' raid tanks in the game. Every single raid and dungeon without question can be tanked by Warriors, Paladins, and Druids alike. It may require different gear itemization, enchants, or otherwise but it can be done.

If I really wanted to be crazy I'd say potion cooldowns should be reduced from 2 mins to 30 seconds and let people just pot pot pot and make WoW a consumables-focused game like some other MMOs. That however would drastically change design and difficulty for raids and otherwise. All I'm asking here is simple changes that won't drastically affect PvE or PvP other than a tiny bit of QoL similar to adding in a Guild Bank NPC in Stormwind/Orgrimmar rather than telling everyone to 'suck it up buttercup' and 'deal with it' because 'it is vanilla'.

We are not here 'because it is vanilla' we are here because the custom stuff is pretty good :)
Last edited by Daedalus007 on Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

Werefox
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Werefox » Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:58 am

Daedalus007 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:43 am
You sound like one of those who are on the 'no changes' camp for WoW Classic.
I opposed the nochanges idiocy. You're not very good at cold reading. Leave it to professionals.
Daedalus007 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:43 am
You have yet to make one meaningful reasonable rational argument to justify keeping things as they are.
At the same time I fully subscribe to "do not fix what ain't broken" principle. And blessings are definitely not broken, it is pure l2p issue on your side.
Daedalus007 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:43 am
Werefox, you keep talking about 'decisions' but you don't understand that THIS IS NOT VANILLA AND WILL NEVER BE VANILLA.
It does not matter whether it is vanilla, strawberry or FFXIV. Basic game design principles are as universal as your failure to understand them.

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Daedalus007
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Daedalus007 » Wed Jun 12, 2024 4:01 am

Werefox wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:58 am
*snip*
Considering this very server has literally gone against what you praise for so heavily, why are you even here? Play any one of the many 'vanilla' servers out there that have 'basic design principles' as you put it. Go play the same thing over and over again with every fresh server alongside your fellow grognards. Enjoy that.

If YOU understood what World of Warcraft stood for, it is that they tried to create something outside of the 'norm' of gaming at the time and didn't follow any 'basic design principles' because NONE OF THOSE EXISTED in the time period of 1996-ish to 2004-ish era. In fact there weren't even game design schools or books until well past when WoW vanilla launched. What principles are you championing for? Because Turtle WoW is already custom enough that it would already offend your delicate sensibilities.

Me? I'd rather have fun :)

None of what you advocate for is part of fun. It won't diminish the fun. It will reduce stress, increase cooperation, and overall improve the game just as all the other hundreds of thousands of changes already in the Turtle WoW version of the game already exist.

Werefox
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Werefox » Wed Jun 12, 2024 4:07 am

Daedalus007 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 4:01 am
Considering this very server has literally gone against what you praise for so heavily,
Where? With exception of few blunders here and there Turtle devs did rather good job that is fully in line with good game design practices. It is your proposal that makes very little sense. I even tried to explain why but you only listen to your own voice.

Ravenstone
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Ravenstone » Wed Jun 12, 2024 9:04 am

Werefox wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:58 am
I fully subscribe to "do not fix what ain't broken" principle.
I agree with this sentiment on the subject of buffing.
Akos1896 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:20 pm
there are some design problems:
* They are expensive as hell
* Until lategame versions, you have to put them up 1 by 1 on a medium duration (which changes to long duration with the lategame versions)
* Every time someone dies, buffs are cleared
I don't understand how these are problems. If someone dies, they should lose their buff. Allowing buffs to remain cheapens them.
99% of the time, just buffing the tank with Stamina in a dungeon is enough. People aren't going to kick the healer in a dungeon. I've never had a problem with rebuffing every 5 mins as a Paladin.

At the end of the day, there are going to be some chores in the game. These don't always need fixing. People still buff each other even with all these problems at endgame, and earlier on, people still hand buffs out.

Akos1896
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Jun 12, 2024 9:19 am

Just pls read further that post. I gave frequent IRL examples just under that list showing what these mean in practice.

Ravenstone
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Ravenstone » Wed Jun 12, 2024 9:35 am

Akos1896 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 9:19 am
Just pls read further that post. I gave frequent IRL examples just under that list showing what these mean in practice.
What makes you think I didn't read all of your message? Don't just assume because I only quoted a part of your message I didn't read it all. I did read it all, I just fundamentally disagree with the idea that they are problems.

You gave two arguments under the assumption that everyone in a dungeon needs the Stamina and Spirit buffs 24x7 which is just entirely overkill. I responded by saying realistically only the tank needs the Stamina buff. Even fewer need the Spirit buff.

The arguments about raiding I have a little more sympathy for, but again if people aren't willing to wait, join a proper guild. The problem there is that the pug isn't waiting, not that it takes too long to buff everyone.

Atreidon
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Atreidon » Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:07 am

The system isnt broken for leve 60 characters with access to the greater blessings. Occasionally rebuffing a class before drinking or when having a free gcd is not a big problem.

Pala buffs are very much designed to be rebuffed. Since freedom & protection also remove them.

But the experience is very much different between dungeonruns as lowlevler and raider.

The bigger blessings ob a larger scale suffice (its not broken, dont fix it). Plenty of times do you have to rebuff them before expiry anyway since someone hit the dirt or you had to cast freedom/protection on them. But with the small blessings paladins suffers from the same fate as shaman totems. If they arent currently active, blessings are by far the best spells you can cast. But they arent amazingly exciting.

As opposed to a warrior cry where its a one and done deal, you have to target & buff 5 players all the time.

Clearly the 15 mins blessings are not problematic, we had them for ages, but why do they have to be limited to lvl 60?

Akos1896
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:14 am

I disagree regarding the dungeon-buffing part because of two things:
1. Ideally only the tank gets hit but this is usually not the case. Not buffing melee DPS or even casters can lead to their death. You can argue that them pulling threat is their responsibility and lacking stamina buff is not the cause of their death, bad threat management is. In an ideal world I'd agree but reality is different. DPS will frequently overpull and if they die without having a stam buff on, you are targeted as a priest. Reality is that all need stam buff because people play suboptimally, get hit randomly and get toxic if they die without a buff which would have prevented the death.
With spirit I was more flexible when leveling up until the point when rogues and hunters started to demand spirit buff mid dungeon (?). Again, you can say it's a 'them-problem'. It is. But it doesn't change the reality that you face an unenjoyable gameplay with bad team morale if you don't follow the rules of the reality created by the playerbase.
2. Lowering the mana cost of the buff wouldn't make the priest inherently stronger or would not break anything in the game. It would only result in less waiting time. Let's admit it, waiting 3x to drink full every 30 minutes is not enjoyable for anyone involved. Party members either wait unwillingly or they yolo, and you run after them with 40% mana and without them having half of the buffs. This leads to point 1. Again, in an idea world, I'd agree with you but WOW playerbase is not an ideal world.

For the argument someone made about cheap buffs would feel as free auras, mana cost is there so you select the time when to apply them: again, with a WOW playerbase with this mentality, it would work. But try explaining the retri pala in Deadmines that he doesn't get stamina buff for the trash pulls, you'll see why this is unrealistic.
I don't think cheap buffs are 'free auras for everyone'. At late raids when you are 30+, yes, since you are guaranteed to have some priests.
But at 20 men raids downscaled to 12, at Kara10, even at dungeons or random open world groups you are not guaranteed to have specific classes and specific buffs. It's up to the team comp.
Last edited by Akos1896 on Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Akos1896
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:16 am

Atreidon wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:07 am
The system isnt broken for leve 60 characters with access to the greater blessings. Occasionally rebuffing a class before drinking or when having a free gcd is not a big problem.

Pala buffs are very much designed to be rebuffed. Since freedom & protection also remove them.

But the experience is very much different between dungeonruns as lowlevler and raider.

The bigger blessings ob a larger scale suffice (its not broken, dont fix it). Plenty of times do you have to rebuff them before expiry anyway since someone hit the dirt or you had to cast freedom/protection on them. But with the small blessings paladins suffers from the same fate as shaman totems. If they arent currently active, blessings are by far the best spells you can cast. But they arent amazingly exciting.

As opposed to a warrior cry where its a one and done deal, you have to target & buff 5 players all the time.

Clearly the 15 mins blessings are not problematic, we had them for ages, but why do they have to be limited to lvl 60?
Would you agree on 15 min class-based greater buffs and 15 min, individually casted buffs below 60?

Geojak
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Geojak » Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:32 am

Akos1896 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:16 am
Atreidon wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:07 am
The system isnt broken for leve 60 characters with access to the greater blessings. Occasionally rebuffing a class before drinking or when having a free gcd is not a big problem.

Pala buffs are very much designed to be rebuffed. Since freedom & protection also remove them.

But the experience is very much different between dungeonruns as lowlevler and raider.

The bigger blessings ob a larger scale suffice (its not broken, dont fix it). Plenty of times do you have to rebuff them before expiry anyway since someone hit the dirt or you had to cast freedom/protection on them. But with the small blessings paladins suffers from the same fate as shaman totems. If they arent currently active, blessings are by far the best spells you can cast. But they arent amazingly exciting.

As opposed to a warrior cry where its a one and done deal, you have to target & buff 5 players all the time.

Clearly the 15 mins blessings are not problematic, we had them for ages, but why do they have to be limited to lvl 60?
Would you agree on 15 min class-based greater buffs and 15 min, individually casted buffs below 60?
while i would like 30 min raid class buffs, the main issue has always been the 5 min individual ones. having the both be 15 would be already a nice imporvmement for those cases you got this one druid that wants might instead of wisdom as an example.

i think we should just double the duration of both
5 -> 10
15 -> 30
if they have to, increase mana cost by 20%, if its more than that then pls no changes

Ravenstone
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Ravenstone » Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:56 am

Akos1896 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:14 am
To me this reads, "I know what the real problem is, but I'd rather just give in to make my life easier."

People being unreasonable shouldn't be the driver behind changes. Find better teammates. I'd personally prefer people rushing and being antisocial not be rewarded through gameplay.

I'm not going to address your second point since we clearly have different points of view.

Akos1896
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Jun 12, 2024 11:13 am

I agree. I see your points but my value set/pov is different.

Likaleo
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Likaleo » Wed Jun 12, 2024 4:18 pm

I dont get it. Most of the raids are less than 1hours so you need to cast greater blessing 4 times.....? Nax is like 2hours so 8 greater blessing casts

Valamas
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Valamas » Wed Jun 12, 2024 5:53 pm

Likaleo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 4:18 pm
I dont get it. Most of the raids are less than 1hours so you need to cast greater blessing 4 times.....? Nax is like 2hours so 8 greater blessing casts
you know you need to apply it to each class in the raid right? so 81 casts for the top 10 guilds right now doing naxx right now assuming no one in the raid dies.

Grizb37
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Grizb37 » Wed Jun 12, 2024 6:23 pm

Likaleo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 4:18 pm
I dont get it. Most of the raids are less than 1hours so you need to cast greater blessing 4 times.....? Nax is like 2hours so 8 greater blessing casts
Say you know nothing without saying you know nothing

Atreidon
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Atreidon » Wed Jun 12, 2024 6:46 pm

Akos1896 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:16 am
Atreidon wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:07 am
The system isnt broken for leve 60 characters with access to the greater blessings. Occasionally rebuffing a class before drinking or when having a free gcd is not a big problem.

Pala buffs are very much designed to be rebuffed. Since freedom & protection also remove them.

But the experience is very much different between dungeonruns as lowlevler and raider.

The bigger blessings ob a larger scale suffice (its not broken, dont fix it). Plenty of times do you have to rebuff them before expiry anyway since someone hit the dirt or you had to cast freedom/protection on them. But with the small blessings paladins suffers from the same fate as shaman totems. If they arent currently active, blessings are by far the best spells you can cast. But they arent amazingly exciting.

As opposed to a warrior cry where its a one and done deal, you have to target & buff 5 players all the time.

Clearly the 15 mins blessings are not problematic, we had them for ages, but why do they have to be limited to lvl 60?
Would you agree on 15 min class-based greater buffs and 15 min, individually casted buffs below 60?
Absolutely, i think thats the ideal scenario.

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Daedalus007
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Daedalus007 » Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:41 pm

I've still yet to see any viable meaningful arguments being made against the idea other than grognards who are used to Paladins being nothing more than auto-attacking 'buffbots' and healers. Nothing more or less ever. How DARE they allow Paladins to DPS and Tank! :P

I'm not of that mentality, so we'll probably just have to agree to disagree on that point. I find it amusing that someone mentioned #nochanges when this server by the very nature of it existing has TONS of changes already done and planned.

I see no issues with increasing the duration of Paladin blessings (Both regular and greater ones to at least 4x their current duration so 5 x 4 = 20m normal blessings and 15 x 4 = 60m greater blessings. Not quite the 30/60 but it is an easy multiplier to use.

I also see no issues with reducing the *baseline* mana cost of priest blessings, both regular and greater ones. We aren't in 2004 and this server is already proof of what a 'vanilla PLUS' mentality can turn into. Again those who want the baseline unmodified meta can go play any other 'vanilla' server at their leisure. Those who remain would likely prefer the vanilla plus custom content that Turtle WoW provides.

For all those who voted against this idea, anytime someone complains about a lack of buffs in 5-mans or other non-raiding context I'm gonna just respond with a /laugh. Have fun questing in the open world because nobody will want to deal with 'demanding' DPS in dungeons.

Werefox
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Werefox » Fri Jun 14, 2024 9:05 pm

Daedalus007 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:41 pm
How DARE they allow Paladins to DPS and Tank! :P
Do you even play Paladin? It is precisely tanking and dps that require cheap throwaway blessings.
Daedalus007 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:41 pm
I find it amusing that someone mentioned #nochanges
That was you actually.

Bogyone
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Bogyone » Sat Jun 15, 2024 7:57 am

While retaining spirit of Vanilla is essential there are things that keeping them makes as much sense as having a stone in your yard you keep up bumping in and bruising toes every day.

I never played paladin for more than few levels, I never enjoyed it, I think they have become crazy overpowered because Blizz devs had girlfriends that wanted to play WoW too.

And I think that making paladin players gaming experience more miserable by ridiculously short buffs serves absolutely noone, not them, not others.

Atreidon
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Atreidon » Sat Jun 15, 2024 8:08 am

Daedalus007 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:41 pm
I've still yet to see any viable meaningful arguments being made against the idea other than grognards who are used to Paladins being nothing more than auto-attacking 'buffbots' and healers. Nothing more or less ever. How DARE they allow Paladins to DPS and Tank! :P

I'm not of that mentality, so we'll probably just have to agree to disagree on that point. I find it amusing that someone mentioned #nochanges when this server by the very nature of it existing has TONS of changes already done and planned.

I see no issues with increasing the duration of Paladin blessings (Both regular and greater ones to at least 4x their current duration so 5 x 4 = 20m normal blessings and 15 x 4 = 60m greater blessings. Not quite the 30/60 but it is an easy multiplier to use.

I also see no issues with reducing the *baseline* mana cost of priest blessings, both regular and greater ones. We aren't in 2004 and this server is already proof of what a 'vanilla PLUS' mentality can turn into. Again those who want the baseline unmodified meta can go play any other 'vanilla' server at their leisure. Those who remain would likely prefer the vanilla plus custom content that Turtle WoW provides.

For all those who voted against this idea, anytime someone complains about a lack of buffs in 5-mans or other non-raiding context I'm gonna just respond with a /laugh. Have fun questing in the open world because nobody will want to deal with 'demanding' DPS in dungeons.
There is a practical reason why palasin buffs shouldnt last too long. Your shorter blessings override them. Many paladins (me included) forget to reapply the blessing after freedom & protection expire.

If the buffs are hour long, there is a good chance you forget to rebuff that person for the entire raids duration.

Additionally, from practical Experience i can tell you in the majority of raids, there is a good chance a member of a given class dies every 15 mins anyway, so you have to rebuff.

The bigget blessings also just arent that cumbersome, you easily can rebuff them mid combat should they fall off.

And lastly, blessings are part of what it means to be paladin, buffing is part of our gameplay. And relegating it completely to the beginning of the dungeon like with all other classes is just needless homogenisation. In the worst case, bigger blessings only cost you ~20 seconds to apply & regen the mana back that you spent.

Small blessings are a horrible exercise in tedium, but bigger blessings are really not an issue

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Daedalus007
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Daedalus007 » Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:03 am

Gonna respond to these piece by piece.
Atreidon wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2024 8:08 am
There is a practical reason why palasin buffs shouldnt last too long. Your shorter blessings override them. Many paladins (me included) forget to reapply the blessing after freedom & protection expire.
Paladin* first of all. The default spellcheck in any modern web browser would've pointed out your hastily-written slop but you chose to ignore it in your rush to spew more garbage onto an already-bloated forum.
Shorter Blessings (Freedom/Salvation/etc) overriding the main blessings is something that was rectified later (becoming 'Hands') and hopefully can become baseline here as well. That's a design oversight, not a 'core gameplay feature'.
Your ignorance in reapplying blessings means you fail both your party/raid and yourself due to your skill issues. Learn to use any Paladin Blessing addon to keep track of things. Not that difficult to do. There's a great one called ZOMGBuffs that only works in the 3.3.5 client although there's a few alternatives for this v1.12 custom version that T-wow runs. That's a YOU failure not a class problem.
Atreidon wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2024 8:08 am
If the buffs are hour long, there is a good chance you forget to rebuff that person for the entire raids duration.
Again, a YOU problem not a class problem. Use addons or fail yourself and your group/raid. Enjoy that.
Atreidon wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2024 8:08 am
Additionally, from practical Experience i can tell you in the majority of raids, there is a good chance a member of a given class dies every 15 mins anyway, so you have to rebuff.
False. Nobody dies 'every 15 mins anyways' and still stays in raids if the guild is progressing in any way. That person would be needing a repair bot every guild raid run (or a hearth/repair/summon back). You saying this means you've either done nothing but pug raids or talking out of your ass about something you haven't actually done. Skill issue, basically. You may have one or two people dying on every boss, but it isn't commonplace to have multiple people of the SAME class dying on trash pulls.
Atreidon wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2024 8:08 am
The bigget blessings also just arent that cumbersome, you easily can rebuff them mid combat should they fall off.
Biggest* Do you even spellcheck, bro? Seriously. If your raiding is as bad as your laughable attempts to type then no wonder you have people dying on you. Also no. Your job as the 'healbot' is to stand there and heal. No time to rebuff anything or anyone who dies in combat or has buffs 'fall off' in combat. Priests at least get 60 minutes and so do mages/druids. Do Paladins get that luxury? Of course not. The point of this thread, in fact. I wouldn't openly support increased mana costs and/or increased reagent costs for greater blessings, but if that's what it took for increased duration then it still wouldn't satisfy the haters like you and so many others.
And again, if you use a decent blessing addon, you know who is missing their blessings and when. Addons keep track of all of it so if it 'falls off' mid-combat and you don't rebuff you're usually busy healbotting because you and others like you feel that's the ONLY job a Paladin should do.
Atreidon wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2024 8:08 am
And lastly, blessings are part of what it means to be paladin, buffing is part of our gameplay. And relegating it completely to the beginning of the dungeon like with all other classes is just needless homogenisation. In the worst case, bigger blessings only cost you ~20 seconds to apply & regen the mana back that you spent.
Completely false and downright insulting; you have no idea what Paladin is about (especially Holy) or the challenges that Paladins deal with on a near-daily basis. If you feel this way then why are you playing here instead of on literally any 'vanilla' v1.12 server that already has things exactly the way you want?
Atreidon wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2024 8:08 am
Small blessings are a horrible exercise in tedium, but bigger blessings are really not an issue
Correct on the first part, but your opinion on the second part is subjective. Longer blessings for both lesser and greater blessings would be a net positive for everyone, both paladins and non-paladins alike. There literally is no downside. Just an imaginary strawmen or ten that you and other haters love to throw around. Making Paladins suffer through 60 levels to get greater blessings feels more like a punishment than a benefit (due to the reagent cost).

Atreidon
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Atreidon » Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:11 am

To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail

Of course not rebuffing blessings after using BoP / BoF is a skill issue, but so is not rebuffing every 15 minutes. I Raidlead a naxx clearing guild as protection paladin and i find the time to rebuff just fine.
To that extent i can also tell you, that over half the time i rebuff the blessings before they expire. Because while no single raider dies every 15 minutes, there is always someone who needs a new blessing because of death / changing combat situations. So you need to check your buff addon frequently anyway.
Personally i use pally power. Its great, showing you both appliance status of buffs & remaining durations for your buffs. As well as allowing you to rebuff with a single click.
Wether i rebuff 1 or 9 classes doesnt change much while at it.

With big blessings, buffing on time is a mindset issue, not a gameplay issue

And if you don't like managing your buffs, why don't you join me in switching to retail?
Last edited by Atreidon on Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Charanko
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Charanko » Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:50 am

I dont even play, or like paladin and i support this… how was this not the first thing to change for paladin is confusing…
Orky Sulfuron Champion

Diablowjob
Posts: 36

Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Diablowjob » Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:54 am

Atreidon wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:11 am
To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail

Of course not rebuffing blessings after using BoP / BoF is a skill issue, but so is not rebuffing every 15 minutes. I Raidlead a naxx clearing guild as protection paladin and i find the time to rebuff just fine.
To that extent i can also tell you, that over half the time i rebuff the blessings before they expire. Because while no single raider dies every 15 minutes, there is always someone who needs a new blessing because of death / changing vombat situations. So you need to check your buff addon frequently anyway.
Personally i use pally power. Its great, showing you both appliance status of buffs & remaining durations for your buffs. As well as allowing you to rebuff with a single click.
Wether i rebuff 1 or 9 classes doesnt change much while at it.

With big blessings, buffing on time is a mindset issue, not a gameplay issue

And if you don't like managing your buffs, why don't you join me in switching to retail?
True words. But this guys actually spam in other classes threads and vote for not changing anythign related to others, but defending shit about themselves. I played a paladin and had no problems with pally power and rebuffing people.

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Daedalus007
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Daedalus007 » Thu Jun 20, 2024 3:54 pm

Charanko wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:50 am
I dont even play, or like paladin and i support this… how was this not the first thing to change for paladin is confusing…
As you've seen in this thread and doubtful many others, the pally hate is strong here. Shamans meanwhile are not only beloved by the Horde but actively have tools and talents that make them valuable and useful raid members regardless of spec. They aren't stuck ONLY doing resto healing and nothing else.

Makes me wanna go deep-enhance shammie just for the awesome windfury totem buffs.

People will always find reasons to hate on what they dislike rather than looking at a wider picture of things. I'm not a fan of Warriors or Hunters at all. Really hate the 'rage' mechanic and playstyle isn't for me. However, I still am not over here saying Warriors are too bursty or are always top dps over Rogues or this or that. I don't worry about it. Even if I lose to one in PvP (even repeatedly) I will play around that by working with my teammates instead of complaining about losing 1v1 situations which WoW has never been balanced around.

I'm cool with buffs to multiple classes, including Warriors and Hunters. For Hunters, the entire Survival tree could use a revamp/rework into something viable instead of 'the useless melee hunter tree'. I'd rather there not be melee hunter topping DPS charts like on Season of Discovery Classic (above everyone other than Warriors/Rogues) as that is kinda insane. They're a ranged class and their 3 talent trees should focus on and complement that aspect.

By contrast, people who do nothing but post lengthy diatribes about how much they hate other classes or other classes are OP because X reasons or putting their opinions in their forum signature (lmao) are the types that should be shunned for both their skill and mental issues.

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Daedalus007
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Daedalus007 » Thu Jun 20, 2024 4:07 pm

Atreidon wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:11 am
*snip*
Post a VoD of your full Naxx raid clears. Even a single video is fine. I wanna see how often buffs fall off because making the Pally tank rebuff people DURING combat is probably the single stupidest thing I've heard on these forums (and considering the garbage that people post that's saying something).
If you HONESTLY do something that stupid, you not only fail as a tank but as a paladin overall. I'm laughing at how absolutely brain-dead you have to be to not understand a single fundamental part of WoW.

IF YOU CAST IN COMBAT YOU CANNOT DODGE, BLOCK, OR PARRY WHATSOEVER. Meaning even if you're doing an instant cast like blessings mid-combat, if you don't time it exactly in-between boss attacks you will end up taking a much bigger hit than necessary and putting far more strain on your healers. There's a reason that Paladin tanks generally don't pop consecrate on single-target raid bosses (and it isn't just mana issues). There's a reason that Paladin tanks don't stop to self-heal in combat (and it isn't related to spell pushback). There's a reason that Paladin tanks don't stop mid-combat to rebuff people (and it has nothing to do with anything you've said before).

Like, please please post a VoD. I want to laugh at your stupidity. I really do. Either every single boss fight is done in under 15 mins or you're lying out of your teeth just to make a point. You sound like someone who doesn't even understand Cleave mechanics and then wonders why your melee dps panics whenever you turn the boss around at them.

Atreidon
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Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Atreidon » Thu Jun 20, 2024 4:40 pm

Daedalus007 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2024 4:07 pm
Atreidon wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:11 am
*snip*
Post a VoD of your full Naxx raid clears. Even a single video is fine. I wanna see how often buffs fall off because making the Pally tank rebuff people DURING combat is probably the single stupidest thing I've heard on these forums (and considering the garbage that people post that's saying something).
If you HONESTLY do something that stupid, you not only fail as a tank but as a paladin overall. I'm laughing at how absolutely brain-dead you have to be to not understand a single fundamental part of WoW.

IF YOU CAST IN COMBAT YOU CANNOT DODGE, BLOCK, OR PARRY WHATSOEVER. Meaning even if you're doing an instant cast like blessings mid-combat, if you don't time it exactly in-between boss attacks you will end up taking a much bigger hit than necessary and putting far more strain on your healers. There's a reason that Paladin tanks generally don't pop consecrate on single-target raid bosses (and it isn't just mana issues). There's a reason that Paladin tanks don't stop to self-heal in combat (and it isn't related to spell pushback). There's a reason that Paladin tanks don't stop mid-combat to rebuff people (and it has nothing to do with anything you've said before).

Like, please please post a VoD. I want to laugh at your stupidity. I really do. Either every single boss fight is done in under 15 mins or you're lying out of your teeth just to make a point. You sound like someone who doesn't even understand Cleave mechanics and then wonders why your melee dps panics whenever you turn the boss around at them.
Just stop it, you clearly undermine your own credibility the more you talk.
You can not parry/block while HARDCASTING. Last i checked every single blessing is an instant spell. In fact if that wasn't the case you couldn't block half the time as a tank since you cast consecration, seals & holy shield all the time. All are also considered spells!

The reason we don't drop consecration on some encounters is because we don't wanna pull adds or break CCs (Twin emperors or any mindcontrolling boss comes to mind) but if these are a nonfactor, the only limiting factor for consecration is your manapool (especially considering the 5% dmg reduction libram at least r1 consecration should always be cast on CD if there is nothing to aggro or cc break on an encounter)

If your guild needs more than 15 minutes on any boss but 4hm, i pitty you. So ye you rarely need to rebuff mid combat in a BOSSFIGHT. Usually its only 1-2 people who died and got a BR. But there are trash encounters in raids. and i spend time rebuffing during trash encounters all the time.

Werefox
Posts: 204

Re: Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

Post by Werefox » Thu Jun 20, 2024 10:25 pm

Kings spam tanking meme is what, 5 years old already?

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