Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

[Daedalus007]

Preamble

Previously discussed here: viewtopic.php?t=3501
And here: viewtopic.php?t=5989
Important context here: https://wowrememberance.proboards.com/t ... adins-suck
But keeps being ignored/buried. Figured we'd go for a 2024 update with the upcoming 'class changes' patch coming in a few months.

The original WoW developers admitted that 5 minute blessing 'buffbots' was a bad idea. Same with the 15 minute greater blessings compared to any other class in the game. They called Paladin a 'failed' class alongside Shamans. They had no idea what to do with hybrids. For proof of this, just look at the drastic differences in priority on the various Tier gear sets (T1 is Holy Pally focused with a weird melee set bonus that everyone ignores, T2 has melee-dps bonuses almost overwhelmingly so and feels Ret-focused, T3 is back to full ranged healing). Even they couldn't make up their minds.

However, this is 'vanilla inspired' but not bound by the limitations of vanilla. All the custom content, custom races, custom raids and dungeons, custom zones. We should have class changes that make sense. The slippery slope argument against any QoL should be used on 'non custom' servers which doesn't include Turtle WoW. If they want the 'pure' vanilla experience they're welcome to try on a server without custom content. Guild banks, summonable portable mailboxes and auctioneers, all that gone because all that is 'QoL' technically :P

Main Points

With that in mind, the main gist of the thread: Longer Paladin Buff Durations.

Current Paladin buff durations are far too short for what Paladins effectively are in both raiding/dungeons (PvE) and even in PvP settings. Changes to classes will extend fight durations and the original class designs have long since been altered on Turtle WoW (vanilla never had resto druids in tree form, Holy Priests ignored Lightwell because of how bad it was, etc).

5 minutes for regular blessings
15 minutes for greater blessings

I feel altering these to be in line with other classes would be ideal, especially considering the already-significant reagent cost for greater blessings.

So something as follows would work:

30 mins for regular blessings
60 mins for greater blessings

Epilogue

And furthermore as an argument for 30 minute regular blessings, I will say this.

When a Priest, Mage, or Druid buffs you as they run by, how do you feel? Happy they did so?
Now what about a Paladin who does a 5 minute buff on you? Are you grateful or annoyed or laugh about it?

Exactly my point. It is a completely different mindset to the point where Pally buffs are effectively worthless in open world questing and socializing (the whole point of an MMO) in line with the RP-PvE cooperative nature of the server. I'd like to change this mindset and benefit the entire server. Nobody would be at a detriment because of longer Paladin buffs just like nobody is at a detriment that Retribution Paladins can actually do decent DPS.

Rogues and Warriors who were worried about their raid and dungeon DPS spots don't need to worry. Warriors are not any less in demand despite the buffs to Druid and Paladin tanking. There's just more tanks all around now and that benefits EVERYONE.

Thank you for listening to my Turtle Talk ;)

EDIT: Added a link to a bit of an explanation as to why Paladins and Shamans got the 'hybrid tax' so fiercely. Yes, two of the WoW devs hated hybrids and this was well-known. They had a demonstrated bias against hybrids instead of working to make the game the best it could be. Turtle WoW has the opportunity to break away from the hostile anti-hybrid paradigm of vanilla to make something better than just vanilla.

[Werefox]

They called Paladin a 'failed' class alongside Shamans. They had no idea what to do with hybrids.

True, but this has nothing to do with buff duration. The hybrid cake (along with the talent trees, by the way) turned out a lie because the end game was designed as resource gauntlet for uber optimized cookie cutter units. Hybrids and odd specs make even less sense in BWL than a water mage in Sahara.

As for the topic, here is a much better idea: start using your blessing the way they were supposed to be used. That is, all the time on yourself and very sparingly on anybody else. Nothing will improve your QoL more than turning from simping to healthy equal partners relationship.

[Grizb37]

I agree they definitely need doubling at least. Why people keep arguing saying its not needed I don't know, I think the 5 min buffs are just damn right annoying as I have to keep asking paladins in dungeons to please rebuff, they don't like it, I don't like it. Let's just double the duration. This is V+ after all

[Werefox]

Why people keep arguing saying its not needed I don't know,

Mana cost. Unless you insist blessings should quintuple in duration while staying dirt cheap, so as to give the whiny crowd yet another pretext for their anti paladin crusade.

[Werefox]

"Ackchually"... Here is how we can reconcile everything.

1. The existing blessings remain the way they are.

2. Around level 20 you can learn "greater" version of every blessing that has 30 min duration and corresponding mana cost. Later around level 56ish you can learn "mighty" versions, raid wide and requiring consumables (like the existing greater ones).

3. The short duration tactical blessings (e.g. freedom) are renamed into something else (interventions?) so as to remove them from one blessing at a time rule.

[Manletow]

You would actually be hurting Paladins -- as you could just get buffed by one (for long 30 min duration) then kick the Paladin from the group.

(Paladins might even sell these 'Buffing services'.)

5 mins ensures you must keep Paladins thru the entire dungeon.
However I will admit 5 mins is rather annoying.

Increase to 10 mins to match TBC.

Also -- don't choose a Support Class like Paladin or Shaman if you do not enjoy buffing others.
I personally find it fun and satisfying to powerboost my beloved Horde besties ;3
(and sometimes Alliance i guess. Crossfaction being a thing)

[Werefox]

You would actually be hurting Paladins -- as you could just get buffed by one (for long 30 min duration) then kick the Paladin from the group.

From the creators of "charge at 108% speed". Kek, as usual.

[Akos1896]

Buff cost is key. With my priest I need to drink several times to full just to put up the essentials. Someone dies, group is in a hurry, I lose a big chunk of my mana if I wanna just give him stam.
Pala buff duration can be a thing but they should still be considerably shorter or become more expensive. Let's say you got a 1 hour BoW but you have to drink from 0 to full after buffing 2 classes.

Or normalizing this from all sides and making pala buffs longer while making others' cheaper. Also, something has to be done about totems because they are kinda 1 minute party buffs which have to be reapplied every time you move 2 meters.

Other option is to make buffs stay on the target upon death. Big QoL change but I'm pretty sure that someone somehow would abuse it in a very dirty way.

[Manletow]

You would actually be hurting Paladins -- as you could just get buffed by one (for long 30 min duration) then kick the Paladin from the group.

From the creators of "charge at 108% speed". Kek, as usual.

I obviously meant 'charge in on +108% speed mount'.
Yes a Paladin charging at you at 208% is no keking matter.
They dismount --> press Holy Strike (often followed by Holy Shock crit) and you die. Simple as.
Blood Ring was 2v2 and they changed it to 3v3 cuz Paladins mindlessly bullrushing ppl was/is so laughably broken.

Anyway if they make super long Paladin buffs -- its buffing power should be reduced.
Like keep the 5 Min buff option (full power) but add a weaker version with longer 30 min duration.

[Werefox]

Dude. You have spent the last year (two years? I was not counting) telling everybody how paladin is grossly OP and needs nerfing before dawn cause the sky is falling. And here you are, coming to prey on already insecure people, to tell them that paladin is dysfunctional mess that will be kicked out of raid immediately after buffing. Like it's patch 1.6 all over again.

Somebody please insert a picture of Manlet gradually applying clown makeup. I'm too lazy.

[Manletow]

Dude. You have spent the last year (two years? I was not counting) telling everybody how paladin is grossly OP and needs nerfing before dawn cause the sky is falling. And here you are, coming to prey on already insecure people, to tell them that paladin is dysfunctional mess that will be kicked out of raid immediately after buffing. Like it's patch 1.6 all over again.

Somebody please insert a picture of Manlet gradually applying clown makeup. I'm too lazy.

Actually they dont even need to be in a group to provide buffs. (unrestricted -- unlike Totems)
Well I guess to provide Buffs to horde players yes need to be in group.
Like I said -- Paladins that dont care to run dungeons can just get paid to buff raids/groups for 30 mins.
Then groups can simply take Warriors/Rogues/Etc who do slightly more DPS than Ret Paladin

Anyway i dont really care much about PVE tbh -- more concerned with PVP

[Werefox]

Like I said -- Paladins that dont care to run dungeons can just get paid to buff raids/groups for 30 mins.

"Soothly! Paladins will start selling buffs by the gates of Kara! Chickens will stop reacting to /chicken! Oily Blackmouth will no longer yield oil!" - this one is for the slide with the red nose application.

[Geojak]

How many priests do we see selling buffs outside of dungeon entrances again. Ridicolous

[Ibux]

Dude. You have spent the last year (two years? I was not counting) telling everybody how paladin is grossly OP and needs nerfing before dawn cause the sky is falling. And here you are, coming to prey on already insecure people, to tell them that paladin is dysfunctional mess that will be kicked out of raid immediately after buffing. Like it's patch 1.6 all over again.

Somebody please insert a picture of Manlet gradually applying clown makeup. I'm too lazy.

Actually they dont even need to be in a group to provide buffs. (unrestricted -- unlike Totems)
Well I guess to provide Buffs to horde players yes need to be in group.
Like I said -- Paladins that dont care to run dungeons can just get paid to buff raids/groups for 30 mins.
Then groups can simply take Warriors/Rogues/Etc who do slightly more DPS than Ret Paladin

Anyway i dont really care much about PVE tbh -- more concerned with PVP

paladin can't buff people who aren't in a group or raid with them. also you lose Paladin buffs if you leave their group/raid.

[Atreidon]

Smaller blessings only being 5 minutes is the problem here.
I can undeestand every paladin who doesnt want to buff 5 players every 5 mins in leveling dungeons. Especially since he will need the mana for the upcoming fight so he needs to drink up.

Considering sometimes you want a different blessing for a single person of a class, smaller blessing in raids are basically never used. Being able to buff single light on the tank while giving all other warrs salvation is an exercise in frustration. Extending them to 15 mins would be much apprechiated

But as far as the bigger blessings go, 15minutes are definitely enough. Some spells in paladins toolkits remove blessings, and in many raids you are forced to rebuff even before 15 mins pass due to people dying.

Making greater longer than 15 mins is not having much effect anyway, id rather keep my dirt cheap buffs that allow me to rebuff mid fight if o have to over the 30/60 min buffs and their manacost the other classes have to deal with

[Invokersama]

You would actually be hurting Paladins -- as you could just get buffed by one (for long 30 min duration) then kick the Paladin from the group.

(Paladins might even sell these 'Buffing services'.)

5 mins ensures you must keep Paladins thru the entire dungeon.
However I will admit 5 mins is rather annoying.

Increase to 10 mins to match TBC.

Also -- don't choose a Support Class like Paladin or Shaman if you do not enjoy buffing others.
I personally find it fun and satisfying to powerboost my beloved Horde besties ;3
(and sometimes Alliance i guess. Crossfaction being a thing)

BRUH !!, do you really think paladins are that useless ? XD class with only 4 blessing and buffs as their only spells ?

my man this server is Twow not Classic wow bliz server, and the majority of ppl who play here are casuals or that what i see alteast, people aren't that sweety of minmaxing here to kick ret paladin or druids because warrior have 15% or 10% for more dmg :D, 70% or 80% of ppl who i found in duns are chilling and don't give crap a about that, also same with raids, maybe some guilds do here but they are the minority.

i get the vipe that you are person who used to play in classic server where ppl try minmaxing or optimize to fullest, maybe i am wrong :V, but that what i see your opinions come from, if so then no don't worry ppl will not sell paladins buffs in gates XD this isn't classic wow blizz server, it's classic + Twow server :D

I agree they definitely need doubling at least. Why people keep arguing saying its not needed I don't know, I think the 5 min buffs are just damn right annoying as I have to keep asking paladins in dungeons to please rebuff, they don't like it, I don't like it. Let's just double the duration. This is V+ after all

fucking excatly, it's classic + server, not classic server for god sake, if their something bad or play bad then just change it to be good WTF XD ?


(sorry for bad english)

[Werefox]

Smaller blessings only being 5 minutes is the problem here.
I can undeestand every paladin who doesnt want to buff 5 players every 5 mins in leveling dungeons. Especially since he will need the mana for the upcoming fight so he needs to drink up.

No, the problem is YOU. Stop buffing 5 players every 5 minutes - problem solved. In fact the "problem" exists only because you keep looking at this whole thing through the wrong optics.

You compare blessings to entirely unrelated things like Pink Paw or White Brick and bemoan how short they are. What you should have been doing is compare them to Battle Shout and be amazed by versatility and convenience of your blessings. Because that is exactly what they are - a SELF-buff that is occasionally useful for somebody else. Now go to the warrior forum and find me a single post there along the lines of "I cannot keep BSh up the whole time on the whole raid, I am a total failure! /cry"

And I particularly like that you mention mana. Do you realize how disastrous it's going to be if mana cost increases to be on par with PWF?

TLDR: kill your inner healbot and start actually playing the class.

[Aalena]

Something I would be fine seeing is:

Normal blessings: 10 minutes.
Greater blessings: 30 minutes.
Learn Greater blessings much earlier, like in the 30s.

[Atreidon]

Smaller blessings only being 5 minutes is the problem here.
I can undeestand every paladin who doesnt want to buff 5 players every 5 mins in leveling dungeons. Especially since he will need the mana for the upcoming fight so he needs to drink up.

No, the problem is YOU. Stop buffing 5 players every 5 minutes - problem solved. In fact the "problem" exists only because you keep looking at this whole thing through the wrong optics.

You compare blessings to entirely unrelated things like Pink Paw or White Brick and bemoan how short they are. What you should have been doing is compare them to Battle Shout and be amazed by versatility and convenience of your blessings. Because that is exactly what they are - a SELF-buff that is occasionally useful for somebody else. Now go to the warrior forum and find me a single post there along the lines of "I cannot keep BSh up the whole time on the whole raid, I am a total failure! /cry"

And I particularly like that you mention mana. Do you realize how disastrous it's going to be if mana cost increases to be on par with PWF?

TLDR: kill your inner healbot and start actually playing the class.

Ah yes ad hominem - i do play paladin and i do not buff 5 minute blessings - but the people this hurts are my group members, not myself.
So all you do by condemning my viewpoint is willingly encumber my party

But if you actually bothered to read what i had to say rather than cry out about it, you would have noticed that i am against increasing the duration & manacost for the big versions of the spell...

[Werefox]

but the people this hurts are my group members

They'll be fine.

It is only ad hominem when somebody tries to distract from the problem by pointing out personal shortcomings of the opponent. But in this case the "problem" IS purely psychological: you worry too much.

[Atreidon]

but the people this hurts are my group members

They'll be fine.

It is only ad hominem when somebody tries to distract from the problem by pointing out personal shortcomings of the opponent. But in this case the "problem" IS purely psychological: you worry too much.

No, the problem is YOU.

ye right

[Werefox]

ye right

Precisely. I know (do not ask me how) that Paladin is the go to class for the OCD types, but now you really need to stop obsessing with the only thing that actually works fine in this incoherently designed class.

[Atreidon]

ye right

Precisely. I know (do not ask me how) that Paladin is the go to class for the OCD types, but now you really need to stop obsessing with the only thing that actually works fine in this incoherently designed class.

Just keep digging your hole, its only getting funnier

[Geojak]

Smaller blessings only being 5 minutes is the problem here.
I can undeestand every paladin who doesnt want to buff 5 players every 5 mins in leveling dungeons. Especially since he will need the mana for the upcoming fight so he needs to drink up.

No, the problem is YOU. Stop buffing 5 players every 5 minutes - problem solved. In fact the "problem" exists only because you keep looking at this whole thing through the wrong optics.

You compare blessings to entirely unrelated things like Pink Paw or White Brick and bemoan how short they are. What you should have been doing is compare them to Battle Shout and be amazed by versatility and convenience of your blessings. Because that is exactly what they are - a SELF-buff that is occasionally useful for somebody else. Now go to the warrior forum and find me a single post there along the lines of "I cannot keep BSh up the whole time on the whole raid, I am a total failure! /cry"

And I particularly like that you mention mana. Do you realize how disastrous it's going to be if mana cost increases to be on par with PWF?

TLDR: kill your inner healbot and start actually playing the class.

Battle shout is a bad comparison. One you click once every 2 minutes in convar and done hole group.

The other yiu have 5 people, need to keep track of the buff on 5 people, need to remeber to who to buff with what blessing for 5 person, need to click player, press buff, click player, press buff 5 times, need to get enoug mana for 5 buffs instead of one shout click. And all of this shit every 5 minutes

Its on a compelte different level of annoying and needs to be changed. 10 minutes is they way

[Werefox]

Just keep digging your hole

Dude. You are the one with imaginary problem here. On my side everything works. Learn by example or keep seething in your dark corner, your choice.

[Werefox]

...need to keep track of the buff on 5 people...

Except, of course, you do not NEED any of that. Somebody invented this nonsense that they "must" keep up all the buffs all the time. Please stop. Buffs are for you and only situationally for maybe somebody else. Just like Battle Shout, which they get by accident if they stood nearby. Again, go to warrior forum and find a thread about "i failed to keep BSh on my priest, I must now delete myself /cry".

[Atreidon]

Just keep digging your hole

Dude. You are the one with imaginary problem here. On my side everything works. Learn by example or keep seething in your dark corner, your choice.

I find it funny, i am an advocate against increasing buff durations for greater blessings, and i am just willing to conceede to the people who want increased durations that the short ones are an exercise in frustation. That was my stance. You even come and prove their point by claiming you don't use that spell to buff your allies because you can't be bothered

In my corner everything works, i am a lvl 60 paladin, i have access to bigger blessings, and i made it trough the leveling phase just fine even with 5 min blessings. Since i just rebuff em quickly mid combat. But i have noticed many players, paladins and others who are unreasonably vocal about missing buffs. so clearly the need originates from other classes that want the pala buffs.

Wow is first and foremost a group experience. And 5 minute blessings are just pissing off everyone in the group.

But by all means tell me how not using your strongest class spells in group content because of tedium is good gamedesign

[Werefox]

But by all means tell me how not using your strongest class spells in group content because of tedium is good gamedesign

Super easy. "Games are a series of interesting decisions" (some dude who kinda wrote some game some three decades ago).

- What are not interesting decisions (or not decisions at all)? Mindlessly mashing any number of buttons every 5 minutes. Or every 30 minutes.
- What are interesting decisions? In any 5-man there are about 3 pulls for which paladin buffs are actually relevant. Learn to identify these and stop obsessing about the rest of the run.

[Geojak]

But by all means tell me how not using your strongest class spells in group content because of tedium is good gamedesign

Super easy. "Games are a series of interesting decisions" (some dude who kinda wrote some game some three decades ago).

- What are not interesting decisions (or not decisions at all)? Mindlessly mashing any number of buttons every 5 minutes. Or every 30 minutes.
- What are interesting decisions? In any 5-man there are about 3 pulls for which paladin buffs are actually relevant. Learn to identify these and stop obsessing about the rest of the run.

When are we making Preist buffs 5 minutes? I feel lkke it's not very intersting decision to just buff stam and forget for 30 minutes. Let's fix that! /s

[Werefox]

When are we making Preist buffs 5 minutes? I feel lkke it's not very intersting decision to just buff stam and forget for 30 minutes. Let's fix that! /s

Please identify the specific issue you are trying to solve here.

[Geojak]

When are we making Preist buffs 5 minutes? I feel lkke it's not very intersting decision to just buff stam and forget for 30 minutes. Let's fix that! /s

Please identify the specific issue you are trying to solve here.

By shorting priests buff duration they can also get this fun gameplay decision when to bother buffing instead of mindlessly mashing buff buttons every 30 minutes:
"What are interesting decisions? In any 5-man there are about 3 pulls for which priest buffs are actually relevant. Learn to identify these and stop obsessing about the rest of the run."

Aren't you advocating for this? Because you argument seem to indicate so

[Werefox]

By shorting priests buff duration they can also get this fun gameplay decision when to bother buffing instead of mindlessly mashing buff buttons every 30 minutes:

I was trying to gently hint that you are being silly. But if you insist I will say it aloud, of course.

Priest buffs are unfun not because they are X minutes long. They are unfun because their application is a non-decision. This is plain and simple a mana tax - one of many dirty tricks blizz employed to throttle down the content consumption. Obviously, if you want to make them fun - changing X into any given Y will not solve anything.

On the contrary, Paladin buff IS a tactical decision. But only because they are dirt cheap, which allows to cycle them around as the situation demands. Even mid-pull. The uber-dumb idea we are stuck with here tries to kill this play by turning blessings into significant mana investment that one cannot afford to lose.

(It goes without saying that if there was an option to get 30 min blessings while keeping them under 100 mana I would be all for it. But this is not gonna happen.)

[Geojak]

In that case, why don't you play retail or maybe a legion private server where such kind of time wasting buffs like 30 min preist were axed long time ago.
I think we got a case of, you think your argument is sound but you don't think it to the end

[Hdliebtwo]

Random person in group: Werefox, please buff kings!
Werefox: No.
RP: Why not?
Werefox: Because i am a selfish, idiotic, lazy paladin who can't be bothered. I only buff myself.
>gets kicked from party<
>goes to forum<
Paladins who do buff: Please make blessings last longer than 5 minutes
Werefox: Noooooo! /cry /beg. Everybody needs to follow my example and be a crap team player who wastes everyone's time and effort by playing by my rules! And even though nobody wants to play with me for that reason I want EVERYONE to suffer.
>gets ignored<
The End.

[Werefox]

Werefox: Because i am a selfish, idiotic, lazy paladin who can't be bothered. I only buff myself.
>gets kicked from party<

Congratulations! You've got 1 (one) imaginary victory over a strawman!