PvP balancing

Psynic
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PvP balancing

Post by Psynic » Fri Jun 07, 2024 12:06 am

Hi,
I thought about turtles skill balancing, and i must say, you did a wonderful job. Serious!
But ofc there is a reason why i am writing this.

There is one class, that often onehits ppl With 5k life. And even If you manage it to survive the first hit you have to run, bc this class, have beside its unbalanced damage, a second life.

Paladin need to be nerfed to take PvP on Turtle seriously.

A massdispell would be atleast a possibility to defeat a BiS Retri. It wouldnt be a hard nerf, bc he can still onehit 5k life PvP Chars. But still... It will make PvP more fair. Ofc it would mean, that you have to adjust some raidfights, to keep the Challenge Up.
But rly, for PvP i cant Imagine a better fix. Bc, if you would fix Seal of crusader or Seal of Champion, that would seem unfair, it Always was like this.
I dont know excactly why palas are this OP in dmg. Maybe its the holystrike, but i dont think so. Doesnt matter. A swordproc of a warry can do the same, but there is a big difference since palas have big resis, big dmg, second life With bubble, third life With lay on hands, and crazy ccs.

If you want fair PvP on Turtle, than some ideas are needed.

If you think massdispell would be to OP too, and to much Work to think about all the other possibilitys for massdispell, than brainstorming is needed^^

For me its Just a fact that Pala can defeat all other classes, and other classes Stick to scissors, Stone, paper.

Thank you very much for reading, and for your work.

Greetings
Psynic

Shockoladetwo
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Shockoladetwo » Fri Jun 07, 2024 12:04 pm

Same counts for cast shaman, you eat 4k in one global - they are tanky as hell
You can't really interrupt their heals because, orc... and their water shield never lets them get oom

Geojak
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Geojak » Fri Jun 07, 2024 12:24 pm

paladins cant deafeat all other classess.
shadow priest you lose
mage you lose
shamans, 50:50 in a 1v1 but in a group fight like arena, 3 shamans wipe the floor with 3 paladins
warlock, again you lose
hunter, if he is good, you lose as a paladin
even rogues have a chance (thoght its not in their favour), in a 1v1 he can stun lock you. if the rogue survies bubble and stun, then its the paladins lose
generally paladins mop the floor with meeles and get dumped on by all ranged equally skilled and geared class.
rock paper skissors
OP fix your skill issues. warrios arent suppoed to beat paladins

Jkldsngkljsng
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Jkldsngkljsng » Fri Jun 07, 2024 12:39 pm

Don't listen to Geojak, he is a paladin main and in general a delusional schizo.

Jkldsngkljsng
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Jkldsngkljsng » Fri Jun 07, 2024 12:45 pm

Psynic wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 12:06 am
I dont know excactly why palas are this OP in dmg. Maybe its the holystrike, but i dont think so. Doesnt matter. A swordproc of a warry can do the same, but there is a big difference since palas have big resis, big dmg, second life With bubble, third life With lay on hands, and crazy ccs.
Yes, it is holy strike that makes paladins have such stupid damage. It wasn't in Vanilla, it double dips on Vengeance and Berserker buff, it ignores all armor and resistance, and it has no cast time so it cannot be interrupted.

JotC is stupid too, having an ability that procs weapons on command.

Geojak
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Geojak » Fri Jun 07, 2024 2:11 pm

Jkldsngkljsng wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 12:39 pm
Don't listen to Geojak, he is a paladin main and in general a delusional schizo.
spoken like a real schizo, welcome to the club

Jkldsngkljsng
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Jkldsngkljsng » Fri Jun 07, 2024 2:39 pm

Geojak wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 2:11 pm
Jkldsngkljsng wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 12:39 pm
Don't listen to Geojak, he is a paladin main and in general a delusional schizo.
spoken like a real schizo, welcome to the club
Thank you

Ovaron
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Ovaron » Fri Jun 07, 2024 2:41 pm

must be the reason, why alliance is winning 90% of bgs.



oh wait

Gingerale01
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Gingerale01 » Fri Jun 07, 2024 3:35 pm

Geojak wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 12:24 pm
paladins cant deafeat all other classess.
shadow priest you lose
mage you lose
shamans, 50:50 in a 1v1 but in a group fight like arena, 3 shamans wipe the floor with 3 paladins
warlock, again you lose
hunter, if he is good, you lose as a paladin
even rogues have a chance (thoght its not in their favour), in a 1v1 he can stun lock you. if the rogue survies bubble and stun, then its the paladins lose
generally paladins mop the floor with meeles and get dumped on by all ranged equally skilled and geared class.
rock paper skissors
OP fix your skill issues. warrios arent suppoed to beat paladins

this, paladins are at a disadvantage against all casters...they only destroy melee classes. stop trying to balance things around pvp, it will never work and it was part of the reason retail wow died in the first place, blizzard homogenized the classes and tried to make everything fair. rock paper scissors in pvp is fine, it gives the game flavor. almost all the classes are capable of stupid broken burst damage, if you nerf everything into the ground whats the point.

Jkldsngkljsng
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Jkldsngkljsng » Fri Jun 07, 2024 3:40 pm

Ovaron wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 2:41 pm
must be the reason, why alliance is winning 90% of bgs.

oh wait
Because the lowest percentile of players play paladin. It is common knowledge.
Bonus points if you're helf too.

Paladin is a defensive support class in BGs. You're a healer class in raids ffs. Stop changing things to things they are not.

Geojak
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Geojak » Fri Jun 07, 2024 3:48 pm

Jkldsngkljsng wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 3:40 pm
Ovaron wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 2:41 pm
must be the reason, why alliance is winning 90% of bgs.

oh wait
Because the lowest percentile of players play paladin. It is common knowledge.
Bonus points if you're helf too.

Paladin is a defensive support class in BGs. You're a healer class in raids ffs. Stop changing things to things they are not.
There is no such thing as a healer or support class. Stop the gatekeeping. An enhancement shaman should deal the same dmasge as rogue or a fury warr. Should the warrior deal less dmg than a mage because he can tank? Why is this allowed but not classes capable of healing to pump.

All classes offer some support, warrior has ap group buff, mages have decurse, arcane int, dampen magic. Every class offers something besides rogues (let's be real, rogues have an issue)

Paladin is the most played class on alliance and they still pathetically lose most bgs. If they actually were as op as you make it out, then alliance would stomp the horde. This is the opposite of what we observe. Your arguments are based on deez nuts

Their is 0 proff of your claim that paladin would somehow magically have average less skilled playerbase than other classes. Pure slander

Jkldsngkljsng
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Jkldsngkljsng » Fri Jun 07, 2024 4:12 pm

Geojak wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 3:48 pm
There is no such thing as a healer or support class. Stop the gatekeeping. An enhancement shaman should deal the same dmasge as rogue or a fury warr. Should the warrior deal less dmg than a mage because he can tank? Why is this allowed but not classes capable of healing to pump.

All classes offer some support, warrior has ap group buff, mages have decurse, arcane int, dampen magic. Every class offers something besides rogues (let's be real, rogues have an issue)

Paladin is the most played class on alliance and they still pathetically lose most bgs. If they actually were as op as you make it out, then alliance would stomp the horde. This is the opposite of what we observe. Your arguments are based on deez nuts

Their is 0 proff of your claim that paladin would somehow magically have average less skilled playerbase than other classes. Pure slander
Have you not played Vanilla? Of course there are healer and support classes, just as there are tank and dps classes. It's the meta. Just because some classes have memespecs you don't call that class by that spec.

Paladin is the most played class on Alliance because the class fantasy attracts the most people and people have heard it's overpowered on this server and once they play it they know it's overpowered. Whenever a paladin player plays another class they fall flat on their face and quickly go back.

How would you empirically prove a class has the worst players? That's such a huge undertaking to lay down a study for it's downright impossible to do rigorously.
No, paladin is the class with the most bad players because that is what the majority of the people are noticing from how they are in-game, on discord and on the forums. Bonus points for being helf too.
And it makes sense, the paladin class fantasy is one which appeals to naive, simpleminded people.

Geojak
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Geojak » Fri Jun 07, 2024 4:19 pm

So you admit its not possible to proof but proceed and assume it anyway as a fact. You are obviously biased and a hater of paladins and classes capable of healing in general.

IF warrior is a tank class, then why is it top dps? Because you aren't making any sense

Jkldsngkljsng
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Jkldsngkljsng » Fri Jun 07, 2024 4:27 pm

Geojak wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 4:19 pm
So you admit its not possible to proof but proceed and assume it anyway as a fact. You are obviously biased and a hater of paladins and classes capable of healing in general.

IF warrior is a tank class, then why is it top dps? Because you aren't making any sense
I am drawing conclusions on the best and the sufficient evidence there is.

You're a paladin lover, you main it.
I have no problem with paladins on any other server.

Warrior is the tank and the dps class. If their dps was of memespec worthiness you wouldn't call them a dps class.

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Bigsmerf
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Bigsmerf » Fri Jun 07, 2024 5:32 pm

Jkldsngkljsng wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 4:27 pm
Warrior is the tank and the dps class. If their dps was of memespec worthiness you wouldn't call them a dps class.
Debatable at best.

Enhancement shaman- out of all the sham specs, has the most talents that help melee DPS. One would assume that's the melee dps tree. It also has a tanking function, but that's mostly as a result of players theorycrafting and taking things to the limit. There's a ranged dps and healing spec to go along with that. The healing spec arguably performs the best. What does that make shaman?

Shadow Priest also happens to be the priest spec with the most DPS based talents, focusing on a spell school that is almost strictly offensive. This is the same class with two healer specs. The only class in the game with those options, too. What does that make priest?

Druid is another one of these cases, and the only class that can perform ALL roles if you don't count shaman- who like I said earlier could tank, just not very well. So what does that make druid if it can do everything?

The answer to these is simple. Enhancement is a melee DPS, ranged DPS, healer, and tank (though not officially)

Priest is a DPS, and Healer.

Druid is a healer, tank, ranged and melee DPS.

All these classes are all these things because- now this might seem strange, but... Well, they can do them, obviously. 'Nuff said.
Elmhoof - 60 Feral, between tanking/dps (Main)
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Jkldsngkljsng
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Jkldsngkljsng » Fri Jun 07, 2024 5:43 pm

How about both of you stop changing the semantics of what I said.

If it was the meta in Vanilla for a class to a defense and support class in battlegrounds and be healer in raids, then I am going to call a spade a spade.

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Bigsmerf
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Bigsmerf » Fri Jun 07, 2024 5:52 pm

Y'know, for once- ignorance isn't bliss.


Enjoy the suffering, I guess? I tried. Not much point in repeating (the objective truth) what I've already said.
Elmhoof - 60 Feral, between tanking/dps (Main)
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Charanko
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Charanko » Fri Jun 07, 2024 6:00 pm

Jkldsngkljsng wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 4:12 pm

Paladin is the most played class on Alliance because the class fantasy attracts the most people and people have heard it's overpowered on this server and once they play it they know it's overpowered.
Is there really after all this time; anyone still trying to argue against this??


People are amazing xD
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Jkldsngkljsng
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Jkldsngkljsng » Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:27 pm

Bigsmerf wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 5:52 pm
Y'know, for once- ignorance isn't bliss.


Enjoy the suffering, I guess? I tried. Not much point in repeating (the objective truth) what I've already said.
The whole thing you said provided nothing to the thread.
You could have said 2+2=4 and it would have provided just as much.
That's how you got to a thousand posts, by just being noise on the forums. You are in part why people say the forums are so bad. The structure of this place invites the lowest denominator of people to comment on everything.

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Allwynd01
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Allwynd01 » Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:45 pm

Nothing in Vanilla (or Vanilla+ for that matter) is balanced and that's what is fun about it. You either accept it for what it is or find greener pastures.

I think a lot of people were spoiled by future versions of WoW where every class is homogenized so you have 10 different classes and they are all the same for the sake of balance and someone got the crazy idea that this is "fun".

Vanilla WoW follows the saying "no man does it all by himself" you can't do everything with one class, so you make multiple characters different classes and rely on other people to do the things you can't do just like they rely on you to do the things they can't do.

There isn't really much else to add to this discussion.

Jkldsngkljsng
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Jkldsngkljsng » Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:48 pm

Allwynd01 wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:45 pm
Nothing in Vanilla (or Vanilla+ for that matter) is balanced and that's what is fun about it. You either accept it for what it is or find greener pastures.
Wrong, Vanilla is balanced around Warsong Gulch and it has near perfect balance for that.

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Allwynd01
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Allwynd01 » Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:51 pm

Jkldsngkljsng wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:48 pm
Allwynd01 wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:45 pm
Nothing in Vanilla (or Vanilla+ for that matter) is balanced and that's what is fun about it. You either accept it for what it is or find greener pastures.
Wrong, Vanilla is balanced around Warsong Gulch and it has near perfect balance for that.
Maybe that's the only thing, but PvP is not even a main aspect in Vanilla. It just happens to be balanced. I'm talking about Vanilla WoW in general - it's not balanced and that's OK. People who are obsessed with balancing are used to playing boring and mediocre games. The most fun games are the ones that aren't balanced.

Jkldsngkljsng
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Jkldsngkljsng » Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:54 pm

Allwynd01 wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:51 pm
Maybe that's the only thing, but PvP is not even a main aspect in Vanilla. It just happens to be balanced. I'm talking about Vanilla WoW in general - it's not balanced and that's OK. People who are obsessed with balancing are used to playing boring and mediocre games. The most fun games are the ones that aren't balanced.
Levelling is the main aspect of Vanilla.
You really think Warsong Gulch being balanced is a complete coincidence? You're just being dishonest there

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Charanko
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Charanko » Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:37 am

Allwynd01 wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:51 pm


Maybe that's the only thing, but PvP is not even a main aspect in Vanilla. It just happens to be balanced. I'm talking about Vanilla WoW in general - it's not balanced and that's OK. People who are obsessed with balancing are used to playing boring and mediocre games. The most fun games are the ones that aren't balanced.
No one said its needs to be total balance… but it cant be what it is now; a total disaster…
And yes if u compare vanilla to turtle… vanilla was poetry compred to twow…🤓

and this is what a 5 year old kid would imagine for himself when he wants to be the superhero op knight pink boy…

2 shotting everyclass no matter of armor while 6 sec range stunning; while being immortal and has the ability to dispell anything they choose for basicly no mana… like plz lets give everything to one class plate tank heal one shot burst decurse free mount,longest stun,multiple diff annoying immortality cds,ranged dmg
Lets make them insta lvl 60 for the lolz

True power ranger kiddo power trip fantasy class

are we for real ?
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Invokersama
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Invokersama » Sun Jun 09, 2024 1:25 am

well we waiting for Class Changes 2 in next future patch, they also gonna added resilience ( reduce crit dmg ) to fix the issue of their brust since they aren't the only class that have brust issue problems but all spell casters do, sure paladins might have higher brust dmg then other classes but nerf all classes brust dmg would be the right call then nerfing paladins only if you ask me since rouges stop make em on checked since they got nerf here

the problem with paladins that their dmg is insane in pvp but ok in PvE, you can nerf PvP paladin dmg to make it more fair but that would kill their dmg in PvE unless they got some huge changes or rework to their gameplay

let's just wait for Twow futuer changes and see what they hold for us :V with CC2 and resilience in next patch

devs can fix this issue with killing paladins XD that also solution but that will put the last nail of the coffin for alliance win rate in pvp, also less ppl to queue pvp from alliance side therefore longer queue time for horde, at least that what i think would happen if paladin got huge nerf in dmg.


sorry for bad english :D

Atreidon
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Atreidon » Sun Jun 09, 2024 9:37 am

Just fix holy strike getting +69% dmg increase from the berserking buff or remove berserker from bgs...

The issue has to be addressed anyway with the new teased shaman strike also being an elemental dmg weaponattack.


Bad players will still get murdered for not respecting someone with berserker buff all the same, but at least they cant claim a certain class is faulty because of one niche powerup....

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Gantulga
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Gantulga » Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:23 am

Hopefully Holy Strike, Pain Spike and other such nonsense is getting removed in CC2.

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Allwynd01
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Allwynd01 » Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:57 pm

Jkldsngkljsng wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:54 pm

Levelling is the main aspect of Vanilla.
You really think Warsong Gulch being balanced is a complete coincidence? You're just being dishonest there
I don't do much PvP, WSG is pretty much the only battleground I've done back when I was still eager about PvP many years ago around 2009-2010. I do believe WSG being balanced is a coincidence. Am I wrong? I don't know which battleground was first developed so this can explain why some are favoring one side and suck for the other.

Charanko wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:37 am

No one said its needs to be total balance… but it cant be what it is now; a total disaster…
And yes if u compare vanilla to turtle… vanilla was poetry compred to twow…🤓

and this is what a 5 year old kid would imagine for himself when he wants to be the superhero op knight pink boy…

2 shotting everyclass no matter of armor while 6 sec range stunning; while being immortal and has the ability to dispell anything they choose for basicly no mana… like plz lets give everything to one class plate tank heal one shot burst decurse free mount,longest stun,multiple diff annoying immortality cds,ranged dmg
Lets make them insta lvl 60 for the lolz

True power ranger kiddo power trip fantasy class

are we for real ?
I don't know what and why are you so angry about that you wrote so much nonsensical things. I don't even do PvP, I have Retribution Paladin at level 60, but I've stopped playing it as soon as I hit 60, I haven't done the PvE or PvP for gearing my character, it just sits there, mainly I do leveling in MMORPGs, this is my thing.

But in every aspect of Vanilla/Turtle WoW you can feel the imbalance between classes and it's a cool thing. From what I'm gathering in your rage-induced mishmash of words post is that you are frustrated that you get destroyed by Paladins. I've always suggested that Shamans should be made to be the natural counters for Paladins - having active (and maybe even passive) abilities that allow them to negate Paladins and briefly make them useless. It will enforce the class/faction identity of the classes and make things more interesting, it will also make Shamans more a played and desirable class.

Geojak
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Geojak » Tue Jun 11, 2024 8:52 pm

Allwynd01 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:57 pm
Jkldsngkljsng wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:54 pm

Levelling is the main aspect of Vanilla.
You really think Warsong Gulch being balanced is a complete coincidence? You're just being dishonest there
I don't do much PvP, WSG is pretty much the only battleground I've done back when I was still eager about PvP many years ago around 2009-2010. I do believe WSG being balanced is a coincidence. Am I wrong? I don't know which battleground was first developed so this can explain why some are favoring one side and suck for the other.

Charanko wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:37 am

No one said its needs to be total balance… but it cant be what it is now; a total disaster…
And yes if u compare vanilla to turtle… vanilla was poetry compred to twow…🤓

and this is what a 5 year old kid would imagine for himself when he wants to be the superhero op knight pink boy…

2 shotting everyclass no matter of armor while 6 sec range stunning; while being immortal and has the ability to dispell anything they choose for basicly no mana… like plz lets give everything to one class plate tank heal one shot burst decurse free mount,longest stun,multiple diff annoying immortality cds,ranged dmg
Lets make them insta lvl 60 for the lolz

True power ranger kiddo power trip fantasy class

are we for real ?
I don't know what and why are you so angry about that you wrote so much nonsensical things. I don't even do PvP, I have Retribution Paladin at level 60, but I've stopped playing it as soon as I hit 60, I haven't done the PvE or PvP for gearing my character, it just sits there, mainly I do leveling in MMORPGs, this is my thing.

But in every aspect of Vanilla/Turtle WoW you can feel the imbalance between classes and it's a cool thing. From what I'm gathering in your rage-induced mishmash of words post is that you are frustrated that you get destroyed by Paladins. I've always suggested that Shamans should be made to be the natural counters for Paladins - having active (and maybe even passive) abilities that allow them to negate Paladins and briefly make them useless. It will enforce the class/faction identity of the classes and make things more interesting, it will also make Shamans more a played and desirable class.
That's the funny thing, elemtal shamans are already a strong counter to paladins, no way charanka is getting destroyed by paladins, just look at the 80%+ horde winrates in all battlegrounds

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Zokk
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Zokk » Tue Jun 11, 2024 11:22 pm

They will never nerf paladins, apparently the owners GF plays one.
Just all roll palas.

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Charanko
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Charanko » Wed Jun 12, 2024 7:41 am

Allwynd01 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:57 pm

I don't know what and why are you so angry about that you wrote so much nonsensical things. I don't even do PvP, I have Retribution Paladin at level 60, but I've stopped playing it as soon as I hit 60, I haven't done the PvE or PvP for gearing my character, it just sits there, mainly I do leveling in MMORPGs, this is my thing.
why are u even replying to what im saying when u dont even do pvp or play at 60...
Whos angry, im just calling out the absurd state of paladins on turtle...
Zokk wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 11:22 pm
They will never nerf paladins, apparently the owners GF plays one.
Just all roll palas.
explains alot
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Rejaenne1991
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Rejaenne1991 » Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:49 pm

When a class has 12 sec total immunity every 5 min + 1 more bubble AND plate AND able to heal themselves AND lay on hands AND ridiculous unresistable holy dmg BURST it is just stupid.

There is a reason Blizzard made paladins hit like a wet noodle in classic....

Atreidon
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Atreidon » Wed Jun 12, 2024 6:55 pm

Rejaenne1991 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:49 pm
When a class has 12 sec total immunity every 5 min + 1 more bubble AND plate AND able to heal themselves AND lay on hands AND ridiculous unresistable holy dmg BURST it is just stupid.

There is a reason Blizzard made paladins hit like a wet noodle in classic....
Im sorry but this couldnt be further from the truth...
https://m.youtube.com/results?sp=mAEA&s ... oning+bomb

Was reckbomb degenerate? Yes! was it also as bursty as pally is on turte? Absolutely

Bawanaruto
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Bawanaruto » Thu Jun 13, 2024 12:34 am

forget about paladins... Shadow priests are ridiculously OP on Twow. they have so much mana now, they just spam their spells to no end and fish for procs.

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Gantulga
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Re: PvP balancing

Post by Gantulga » Thu Jun 13, 2024 12:46 am

Bawanaruto wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2024 12:34 am
forget about paladins... Shadow priests are ridiculously OP on Twow. they have so much mana now, they just spam their spells to no end and fish for procs.
Pain spike was a mistake and the vampiric embrace PvE buffs made them even worse in PvP too. Not to mention blackout being a long-running issue.

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