Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

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Unangwata
Posts: 84

Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

Post by Unangwata » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:51 pm

Like I said. Holy Strike alone is perfectly balanced. It doesn't grant extra attack, only increase damage of next one by small amount plus ignore armor. All together isn't that big and doesn't even generate enough damage that would equal extra swing.

HOWEVER what really people complain about is exploit of Judgement of Crusader that grants Holy Strike way too much damage.

Don't touch the Holy Strike, fix Judgement of the Crusader

For example if Crusader may grant holy damage up to 50, Holy Strike will get more than that, while other abilities like Judgement never get full bonus and gain only half of that or less.

Other example:
My swings usually hit for 80-90. With Holy Strike I hit mobs for like 140-150.
When I use judgement of crusader however i get something like 230-240

Roxanneflowers
Posts: 112

Re: Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

Post by Roxanneflowers » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:15 pm

Judgement of the Crusader
Rank 1: up to +20 Holy damage
Rank 2: up to +30 Holy damage
Rank 3: up to +50 Holy damage
Rank 4: up to +80 Holy damage
Rank 5: up to +110 Holy damage
Rank 6: up to +140 Holy damage

Working as intentionally designed.

zzOLD HOLY STRIKE
Consecrates your weapon, inflicting X to Y additional damage on your next attack. All damage caused is considered Holy damage.
Rank 1: 10 to 13
Rank 2: 20 to 25
Rank 3: 36 to 43
Rank 4: 58 to 67
Rank 5: 90 to 113
Rank 6: 121 to 138
Rank 7: 157 to 178
Rank 8: 201 to 226

Holy damage is not reduced by Armor since it is spell damage not physical damage. So what Holy Strike is doing is applying bonus damage (ala Heroic Strike for Warriors) and then converting all of that physical damage into Holy spell damage that bypasses Armor. Judgement of the Crusader then adds additional Holy damage ON TOP OF THAT.

So 80-90 physical damage turning into 140-150 Holy damage being augmented up to 230-240 Holy damage is precisely the kind of Clever Use Of Game Mechanics™ that is intended to be happening here. You're basically talking about an increase of +150 damage (in your example) every 10 seconds, or a +15 DPS increase over baseline at best using the specifics of your example as posted.
Unangwata wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:51 pm
My swings usually hit for 80-90. With Holy Strike I hit mobs for like 140-150.
When I use judgement of crusader however i get something like 230-240

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Unangwata
Posts: 84

Re: Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

Post by Unangwata » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:22 pm

Roxanneflowers wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:15 pm
So 80-90 physical damage turning into 140-150 Holy damage being augmented up to 230-240 Holy damage is precisely the kind of Clever Use Of Game Mechanics™ that is intended to be happening here. You're basically talking about an increase of +150 damage (in your example) every 10 seconds, or a +15 DPS increase over baseline at best using the specifics of your example as posted.
Maybe you should read carefully before answering.
Higher damage bonus from Crusader than it can theoritically provide is not intended. It's a bug and cause of problems here. Even if it provided full damage bonus it would also be weird because any other instant ability doesn't get full bonus.

So instead whining about Holy Strike people should focus on Crusader because it's the cause of the problems.
Holy Strike alone is not very powerful, SoC proc provides more damage.

The axamples I gave are from 24 lev. My Crusader provides up to 50 extra damage. You can see Holy Strike actually gets something like 90, while in fact it should get something like 25 like any other ability.
Last edited by Unangwata on Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Balake
Posts: 136

Re: Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

Post by Balake » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:29 pm

Calling it Clever Use Of Game Mechanics is wrong. If an ability should have x1.0 scaling with spellpower and it's getting x2.0 it's a bug. Not Clever Use Of Game Mechanics. You are not being clever by using an ability just as you would normally except it's overtuned because of some glitch.

Roxanneflowers
Posts: 112

Re: Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

Post by Roxanneflowers » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:29 am

/facepalm

Using the explicit numbers provided ...

80-90 physical damage
Convert to Holy damage and add +60
Now dealing 140-150 Holy damage and 0 physical damage
Judgement of Crusader adds another +90 Holy damage on top of that
You're now dealing 230-240 Holy damage

(80-90) + 60 = (140-150) + 90 = (230-240)

+60 damage from Holy Strike can be achieved at Rank 4+
+90 damage from Judgement of the Crusader can be achieved at Rank 5+

Both are within the bounds of possibility given the sheer anecdotal lack of specific details given in the provided example in your original post. No details of spell ranks involved were provided (which is kind of important). Only in your last post did you even first mention a character level (24) to have something ... ANYTHING ... to begin to benchmark with against expected performance.

A Level 24 Paladin would have access to Holy Strike rank 3 and Seal/Judgement of the Crusader rank 3.

Holy Strike rank 3 adds 36-43 Holy damage on top of the base damage of your weapon strike. For convenience we'll call this +40 damage. So to get a 140-150 Holy damage throughput your weapon ought to be doing about 100-110 physical damage (base), which against armor gets reduced to the 80-90 that you're reporting (about a 20% reduction due to armor, which Holy Strike will bypass).

Judgement of the Crusader rank 3 would then be adding up to +50 Holy damage, so the expectation would be to see a 190-200 thoughput onto target, rather than the 240-250 that you're reporting. So then that does look like a double dipping boost in damage throughput from Judgement of the Crusader and would imply that there is something coded improperly in this interaction. But to get to that conclusion, more data was absolutely necessary than you originally provided.

However, Seal of Righteousness can be used in conjunction with Judgement of the Crusader to magnify additional Holy damage. This is rarely useful at lower levels/spell ranks since the damage gain tends to be pitiful, but is a potential contaminating factor to be accounted for.

Khazeig
Posts: 6

Re: Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

Post by Khazeig » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:54 am

Makes sense, I think most people are so used to paladins being a non threat that it feels OP

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Kazgrim
Posts: 287

Re: Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

Post by Kazgrim » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:20 pm

leveling a paladin atm. 1-20 was an incredible breeze and i could 2 shot mobs 2-3 mobs lower than me if i crit with holy strike (once had a crit of 320 at level 17). lets not pretend it isnt a powerful spell. ive seen holy strike do some ridiculous damage from other players (pvp, pve) at later levels. it really should be removed as its just a one button crutch at this point.
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Kazgrim
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Re: Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

Post by Kazgrim » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:28 pm

and the fact that holy strike scales with everything: strength, attack power, spell damage, int, exponentially increases its effectiveness
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Unangwata
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Re: Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

Post by Unangwata » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:41 pm

Kazgrim wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:20 pm
leveling a paladin atm. 1-20 was an incredible breeze and i could 2 shot mobs 2-3 mobs lower than me if i crit with holy strike (once had a crit of 320 at level 17). lets not pretend it isnt a powerful spell. ive seen holy strike do some ridiculous damage from other players (pvp, pve) at later levels. it really should be removed as its just a one button crutch at this point.
I don't know why you people don't get it. Holy Strike doesn't even give you damage that equals extra swing. I explained carefully that it's overpowered only when used with judgement of crusader making it hit like a truck. Fix that instead blaming holy strike.
Any other spell works correctly with crusader except of holy strike

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Unangwata
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Re: Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

Post by Unangwata » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:46 pm

Kazgrim wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:28 pm
and the fact that holy strike scales with everything: strength, attack power, spell damage, int, exponentially increases its effectiveness
That's one of very few abilities that actually scales with AP. Judgement endgame is joke. Holy shield is joke unless you use SP gear as tank. Most of abilities are jokes because don't scale with gear you have.
And you complain about one ability that actually gets some benefit ? Instead of that investigate cause of the problem, like I mentioned it's crusader judgement that makes it overpowered and that's when other people hit you for huge numbers. Deal with crusader and problem is gone.

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Kazgrim
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Re: Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

Post by Kazgrim » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:04 pm

we cannot edit the mechanical properties of spells. between holy strike and jusgement of crusader, you can only fix this issue by removing holy strike.
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Unangwata
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Re: Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

Post by Unangwata » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:30 pm

Kazgrim wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:04 pm
we cannot edit the mechanical properties of spells. between holy strike and jusgement of crusader, you can only fix this issue by removing holy strike.
What ? That's first I hear since I play private servers. There should be no problem changing how much bonus ability gets from spellpower. If there is, tell people who make the core fixes to edit that.
Every other spell got it set, judgements, seals, etc. It was not just done yet for Holy Strike or done wrong.

And how do you know it ?
Are you part of dev team or specialist ?

Balake
Posts: 136

Re: Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

Post by Balake » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:56 pm

As far as I know, spells scaling with things like attack power and holy damage are set in the server database. It is possible to access the database and edit it from what it is now to something lower. Preferably Holy Strike should scale a bit less with spell damage and more with attack power so ret paladins can focus more on strength and agility gear with just some spellpower on the side, while prot paladins focus on spellpower for its scaling with consecration and all their other threat generators.

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Unangwata
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Re: Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

Post by Unangwata » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:10 pm

Balake wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:56 pm
As far as I know, spells scaling with things like attack power and holy damage are set in the server database. It is possible to access the database and edit it from what it is now to something lower. Preferably Holy Strike should scale a bit less with spell damage and more with attack power so ret paladins can focus more on strength and agility gear with just some spellpower on the side, while prot paladins focus on spellpower for its scaling with consecration and all their other threat generators.
Holy Strike doesn't need any scaling from Attack Power because it turns your melee swing into holy damage which ignores armor. So more the AP you have the more benefit you get from ignoring armor. So no further scaling is required.

But yeah, it needs SP scaling fixed ASAP cuz the bonus from Crusader gives 4 times more than it should (and more than tooltip says). As long as Crusader is technically SP bonus.

Balake
Posts: 136

Re: Don't fix Holy Strike. Fix Judgement of the Crusader that makes it bugged

Post by Balake » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:38 pm

Unangwata wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:10 pm
Holy Strike doesn't need any scaling from Attack Power because it turns your melee swing into holy damage which ignores armor. So more the AP you have the more benefit you get from ignoring armor. So no further scaling is required.

But yeah, it needs SP scaling fixed ASAP cuz the bonus from Crusader gives 4 times more than it should (and more than tooltip says). As long as Crusader is technically SP bonus.
Paladins need Attack Power scalings on some ability. 14 attack power on a paladin gives 1 autoattack dps and that's it. 14 attack power on a warrior gives 1 autoattack dps on main hand, 1 on offhand which in turn increases the damage of whirlwind and cleave not to mention bloodthirst. To be make str/agi plate gear more egalitarian between the two classes paladins need better scaling with attack power. Also, in PvE ignoring armor is not that big of a thing since there are already 5 sunder stacks and faerie fire on the boss and vanilla wow bosses barely have armor to begin with, the holy damage no longer becomes notable for penetrating it and is just for sanctity aura and judgement of the crusader.

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