Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Mac
Posts: 67

Re: Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Post by Mac » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:37 pm

Balake wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:18 pm
Pay 2 be different as long as the difference does not affect gameplay.
I just don't think it'd affect game play that much, let alone be pay to win where you're suddenly an untouchable killing machine because you're a Troll Warlock or Gnome Druid or whatever other goofy combo people would want to donate to play. Heck, I'd argue stuff like portable mailboxes and banks and such affect game play more (and yet still aren't pay to win).

But what about this: what if it were purely cosmetic, like a skin or illusion, that didn't affect racials? So if you want to be a Troll Warlock, you could make an Undead Warlock and then turn on the illusion to be a Troll Warlock, but you'd still have your Undead racials?

Balake
Posts: 136

Re: Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Post by Balake » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:42 pm

Mac wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:37 pm
Balake wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:18 pm
Pay 2 be different as long as the difference does not affect gameplay.
I just don't think it'd affect game play that much, let alone be pay to win where you're suddenly an untouchable killing machine because you're a Troll Warlock or Gnome Druid or whatever other goofy combo people would want to donate to play. Heck, I'd argue stuff like portable mailboxes and banks and such affect game play more (and yet still aren't pay to win).

But what about this: what if it were purely cosmetic, like a skin or illusion, that didn't affect racials? So if you want to be a Troll Warlock, you could make an Undead Warlock and then turn on the illusion to be a Troll Warlock, but you'd still have your Undead racials?
That would then create clarity issues, and it then defeats the entire purpose of the suggestion of unlocking all race/class combinations which was initially proposed for balance.

Mac
Posts: 67

Re: Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Post by Mac » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:47 pm

Balake wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:42 pm
That would then create clarity issues, and it then defeats the entire purpose of the suggestion of unlocking all race/class combinations which was initially proposed for balance.
What would those clarity issues be?

I also didn't propose the all race/class combos for "balance." I proposed it as a neat means of getting donations. Letting Horde have Paladins (and Alliance have Shamans) was proposed for balance issues, but that's a separate suggestion entirely. I also proposed mixing teams in BGs for balance (and also as a way to shorten queue times).

Boostacow
Posts: 8

Re: Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Post by Boostacow » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:26 am

Personally as a Horde, Resto/ Shaman player I don’t think it is necessary to disable holy strike during Pvp. I enjoy having to rethink on how to approach a Ret/Pally player now. Yes they do pack a punch now with Holystrike. But a disable would bring it back to the same old ways in the past of ignoring the pally and just purging all the time. Maybe the real issue might be just a slight increase to Mana cost by maybe 10%. I don’t know though since I am not a Paladin player. But as far as outside PvP in 5 mans I don’t see a bit of increased mana usage on holystrike hitting the Paladin too hard. PvP I have really only got Bombed by a strong 2H..by the Pally. But I’ve always played shaman so I’m used to the perspective of luck in the burst damage happening and folks not liking them just go hit hard when they shouldn’t have. All and all, I think Holystike is fine in PvP. If anything maybe just a bit of mana cost increase. A well geared, Engineering Retbomb Pally is gonna hurt just like any class that builds them self well for PvP.

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Kalocsa
Posts: 27

Re: Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Post by Kalocsa » Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:47 pm

I still don't understand why it's not yet disabled. The problem is just it has too much advantages, like the plainsrunning when it was not entirely scripted (like spells weren't disabling the plainsrunning, the funny fact is now, the plainsrunning is well scripted and can be re-enabled in battleground, but it seems the paladin class will be the best class on turtle wow until a new spell they decide to introduce to outplay again the game and its usage in PVP.

Every melee classes are influenced by armor. Even the hunter have dps scalled on the armor of his target.

Paladins were not melee monster, except the famous 8/9 t3 holy paladin spec, with mor than 9K armor, and can heal himself instant everytime. barely impossible to kill in melee.

Now on turtle wow, paladins are melee monster because this "holy strike" was orginally created because there was no seal and no judgement for this (hybrid) melee class during the beta. And on a vanilla 1.12 timeline it changes absolutely everything.

How can you say paladin is a melee monster when originally on an early timeline the dps of a retladin in not beyond 135DPS without consumable (without endgame gear ofc) and is just the worst dps class in the game.

The real problem is holy strike. You guys just seems to be restricted to "lol it's pure and your tears are delicous"

So your recommendation to fight a paladin is to flee like a mage as a warrior? Because you gonna take the same numbers than a f*ckin 300 armor mob lvl 15? C'mon, this is bullshit.
Baldr, A Dwarf legacy. https://youtu.be/AtNVD9B3f3s

Gilgarosh
Posts: 4

Re: Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Post by Gilgarosh » Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:50 pm

Kalocsa wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:47 pm
Every melee classes are influenced by armor. Even the hunter have dps scalled on the armor of his target.
Just to nitpick, Arcane Shot ignores armor because it is an ability that deals elemental damage instead of physical damage, just like Holy Strike. That's working entirely as intended.

Balake
Posts: 136

Re: Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Post by Balake » Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:58 pm

Serpent Sting is nature damage too, immolation trap is fire damage. Hunters might be the class with the most variety in damage types. Those still can be resisted though, holy damage cannot be resisted.

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Xerron
Posts: 73

Re: Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Post by Xerron » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:54 pm

Balake wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:58 pm
Serpent Sting is nature damage too, immolation trap is fire damage. Hunters might be the class with the most variety in damage types. Those still can be resisted though, holy damage cannot be resisted.
holy damage can be resisted
holy strike can be dodged/parried like any other melee attack

Image
E.R.

Roxanneflowers
Posts: 112

Re: Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Post by Roxanneflowers » Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:19 pm

Holy damage can be resisted, as cited above.
It's just unlikely to be resisted since there is a decided lack of Holy resistances to be obtained on gear. However, Alchemists can craft potions of Holy Protection which will absorb Holy damage for you. Note that an argument could be made that higher ranking potions of Holy Protection might be warranted, but that's a separate conversation.



Having given this subject some more thought over the past week or so, I've been thinking that there may be some merit to the objection of having Holy Strike available at ANY TIME without restrictions other than the mana cost and 10s cooldown (and being within melee range of a target you can attack, obviously). That lack of a conditional trigger event to enable use of Holy Strike is then what makes it possible to use the spell as an opening alpha strike ... and THAT is the real objection being raised here.

Which then in turn leads me to think that placing an added conditional onto Holy Strike may be warranted. Basic idea is to move Holy Strike into the response/counter category of activated spells ... like Mongoose Bite (can be used only after dodging), Counterattack (can only be used after parrying), Revenge (can only be used after a block, dodge or parry) and even Riposte (can only be used after parrying). Another option for a conditional would be if the Paladin takes a critical hit, such as the conditional for Reckoning. There's even the conditional for Overpower (can be used only after target dodges) as possible precedents to follow.

The whole point of these types of conditionals is to prevent an attack from being available for use AT ANY TIME so long as resources (mana, rage, energy) are available to spend and the spell cooldown is complete. That lack of a conditional trigger to enable Holy Strike is what then turns Holy Strike into an alpha/opener attack in both PvE and PvP that can be "locked and loaded" until taking a melee swing at something/someone. And it is that lack of a conditional trigger that enables the kind of front loading of Holy damage on a Paladin that is being objected to here, because when used as an alpha strike it's Too Good™ of an attack, especially in a PvP context (where opponents don't have millions of HP).



So if the means to "rein in" the overwhelming usefulness of Holy Strike in PvP is to place a conditional trigger on Holy Strike ... what should that conditional trigger be, in order to change Holy Strike from an opening/alpha strike spell into a response/counter spell?

My immediate thought is to combine the conditionals for Revenge and Reckoning ... such that Holy Strike can only be used after the Paladin blocks, dodges, parries or receives a critical strike. If any of those additional conditions are met, Holy Strike is enabled for use for 10s (if cooldown is complete, naturally, since cooldown is a separate timer).

In practice, this would mean that Holy Strike still cannot be used more often than once per 10s, so no change from current functionality ... but because of the conditional trigger to enable the spell it could only be used as a response/counter to being attacked, rather than as a front loaded "holding one in the tubes ready to fire" alpha striking spell akin to Raptor Strike or Heroic Strike.



Would a staffer care to comment on the notion?

Balake
Posts: 136

Re: Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Post by Balake » Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:36 pm

If Holy Strike needs to get activated, it must be by something that doesn't force the paladin to be tanking the mob. It exists to help out ret paladins in raid dps, making it require getting hit makes it useless in the only content it's well balanced at.

I'm for gating it behind something to make the class a bit less simple and to stop the frontloaded burst paladins have in PvP. At first I thought of enabling it after the paladin hits an enemy with a critical strike. Ret paladins already have talents that increase their critical strike as well as damage bonuses from critting so it synergies well with the usual ret paladin build PvE build. But unfortunately making it like that would make it a lot less useful on prot paladins that have gotten used to it as an initial threat generator similar to Sunder Armor for warriors.

So, I thought of another activation criteria that doesn't hurt tanking paladins and PvE dps paladins, but stops PvP ret paladins from dishing out all their damage instantly. Holy Strike can only be used within 10 seconds of proccing a seal effect. Basically, the typical pvp paladin burst combo is seal of the crusader, judgement, then cast another seal and activate holy strike then auto. Because of this restriction, the paladin first has to autoattack with that seal and proc its effect, then use holy strike. Since paladins prefer slow weapons, the holy strike has to happen on the 2rd swing of combat with the enemy so after at least 3.5 seconds, 4 seconds at most.

Prot paladins use faster 1-handed weapons so they're not affected by it as much, just 2 seconds on average. At 2 seconds into the fight prot warriors would still be on their 2nd sunder stack anyways.

PvE ret paladins will have constant uptime on their holy strike and can still use it on cooldown so they won't be affected.

Roxanneflowers
Posts: 112

Re: Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Post by Roxanneflowers » Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:17 pm

Balake wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:36 pm
At first I thought of enabling it after the paladin hits an enemy with a critical strike.
Could set up the conditional to be either a critical strike taken or critical strike dealt (spell or melee, so as to include Holy Paladins talented for spellcasting). That way it's weapon agnostic and shield agnostic, while also being attack/heal critical agnostic, thereby accounting for all three talent trees. Also note that such a formulation would incentivize investment into Agility in the attribute budget so as to increase critical hit chances with weapons, along with investment into Intelligence to increase critical chances with spells.

Spell crits would accrue mainly (although not exclusively) to Holy spec.
Critical strikes taken and dealt would accrue mainly to Protection spec (when they have aggro).
Critical strikes dealt would accrue mainly to Retribution spec (and Protection when they don't have aggro).

Of course, doing that would then enable a perverse incentive to fish for critical heals to self prior to engaging, but that would cost mana for all the spellcasting that doesn't crit (especially if not Holy spec), so ... pick your poison on that score.

Tying the conditional to casting a Seal would be too low of a bar to clear, I'm thinking, since Seals can be cast at any time and for any reason, without restriction (other than the global cooldown). So tying the enabling conditional to casting of a Seal doesn't provide the necessary "reactive" opportunity adjustment that is desired here. You'd still be able to Seal+Holy Strike all too easily prior to an alpha strike at the start of engagement.

Balake
Posts: 136

Re: Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Post by Balake » Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:25 pm

My proposed condition is not casting a seal, it's proccing a seal effect. Which is the on-hit that you get when you auto while buffed with a seal (for some seals its not guaranteed, but seal of righteousness is a way to guarantee a Holy Strike activation.) Critical strikes make it too rng based for prot paladins. It's taking away their initial sunder armor threat generation equivalent because they don't always score a critical strike or get hit by one.

Warrians
Posts: 21

Re: Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Post by Warrians » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:25 pm

Mac wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:13 pm
Warrians wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:50 pm
And how are you going to deal with the "class x faction" quests, and the npcs they point to ? Are you goin to rewrite them all ? Have you tried a shaman without the totems ? When draenei got shaman class, they got every single quest to fix their situation in the world. So, should turtle wow "fix" that by just letting every class have every spell without a quest ? That would turn VANILLA into WTOLK+, and I, for one, would quit.
Make Alliance shaman class quests and Horde paladin class quests that mirror the pre-existing quests, because it’s not like this server doesn’t have custom quests already. In fact, there’s at least one custom quest for the Alliance that is a mirror of a Horde quest in-game.
Truly, there is more than one mirror quest, but im not sure you counted how many quests would have to be re-made. I am just pointing to the fact we saw smaller requests than this being pointed to the "staff is busy" sign. Besides, if I ever see a night elf warlock OR a forsaken paladin in here, or anywhere else, im out.

Mac
Posts: 67

Re: Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Post by Mac » Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:52 am

Warrians wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:25 pm
Truly, there is more than one mirror quest, but im not sure you counted how many quests would have to be re-made. I am just pointing to the fact we saw smaller requests than this being pointed to the "staff is busy" sign. Besides, if I ever see a night elf warlock OR a forsaken paladin in here, or anywhere else, im out.
There's a lot fewer class quests than listed when you account for duplicate class quests and class quests that you don't need to add because the existing ones use neutral NPCs. Making quests is a task the staff can offload onto the player since there's a custom quest maker, so it's not nearly as much work for them as it seems. I also take suggestions as people suggesting it when they have time to implement it, and not "do this now, right now." At least, that's how I mean it.

I think changing the ability to be less front loaded like Balake and Roxanneflowers are suggesting is interesting, and might be a good way to take it.
Roxanneflowers wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:19 pm
Holy damage can be resisted, as cited above.
It's just unlikely to be resisted since there is a decided lack of Holy resistances to be obtained on gear.
Maybe bringing back Holy resist as a stat on gear is a possible solution. It apparently existed in beta until patch 0.7. Holy resist is on the item creator. I think I remember seeing a Holy resist potion in the database that got removed as well. You'd have to change the character sheet so Holy resist displays, but with an upcoming custom patch, that is doable.

Roxanneflowers
Posts: 112

Re: Disable holy strike in battlegrounds?

Post by Roxanneflowers » Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:42 pm

Mac wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:52 am
Maybe bringing back Holy resist as a stat on gear is a possible solution. It apparently existed in beta until patch 0.7. Holy resist is on the item creator. I think I remember seeing a Holy resist potion in the database that got removed as well. You'd have to change the character sheet so Holy resist displays, but with an upcoming custom patch, that is doable.
N.
O.

NO.

Holy is deliberately designed to be the one damage type that is explicitly meant to not have +Resistance available for it. This was an intentional design choice by Blizzard that should NOT be mucked with. It's basically the reason why Holy does less raw damage than Shadow ... because there are resistances available for Shadow but not for Holy. There are a LOT of interconnected pieces and design choices that you will upset if you make it easier (through itemization) to resist Holy.

So I repeat ... NO.
HARD NO.

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