Druid treant pets? Please read

[Kaktus96]

I am sure I am not the first one to have this idea. After all in Warcraft 3 the Keeper of the Grove, a druid type of hero, was able to summon treants for a short amount of time.

But what if instead of an ability that temporarily gives you 3 treants you could just have a permanent pet?
I know it sounds weird but I actually tried to put some thought into this. It would need a talent unlock called "Treant Mastery" for example. And it has to be deep enough into the balance tree to have people who actually want to go boomkin go for it. I suggest Level 30 being the minimum level to unlock Treant mastery.

I was thinking of a selection of 3 possible treant varieties that could aid you in battle. One tank, one utility and one damage focused treant. But before I dive deeper into those varieties I want to answer a possible question. "Why?"
Well it is quite simple. Balance druids are, even with the changes made by turtle WoW, still kind of a meme spec. If you go for boomkin you are basically willingly going for a mediocre class spec just for the memes or because you just like being unique, idk. And if you decide to level as a balance druid you basically set yourself up for a slow and boring grind to 60.

Alright, here are my suggestions for the nature elemental companions you can have.
1. Tank variant
Model: Mirebeast

or


There are various color variants of those. I suggest maybe Horde and Alliance get different color summons here. Maybe the darker colored one for Night elves and the lighter colored ones for Tauren.

Abilities? Standard auto attacks, a damaging ability that generates threat and a special ability that lets it rapidly regenerate(with a big cooldown, like 5-10 mins) should do the trick for a tank pet.
I know I am not listing any numbers here on how much dmg they should do but I haven't thought that deeply about it.

2. Utility variant
Model: Treant(like the one from tree form)

or


Again, 2 color variants for both alliance and horde to easily distinguish on the battlefield.

Abilities? Standard auto attacks, a debuff on target that makes druid dmging abilities on the target regenerate some mana and a special ability that slows an enemy for a few seconds but with a big cooldown. Again, I did not think about numbers here, that is something that can be discussed.

3. Damage dealing variant
Model: Lasher


I didn't actually find proper models for the lasher but there definitely are some in the game that can be used.
So while I only have one variant here it is just to show what kind of mob I had in mind for the damage dealing variant.

Abilities? Standard auto attacks, lashing ability that causes a bleed and a special ability that increases its attack speed to deal good damage over a short period of time. Again I did not think about specific numbers. Also instead of the attack speed ability this treant might be able to interrupt spells or something by strangling the enemy? Open for suggestions here.

Anyway, I know its a rather big post. I hope some of you read it until the end and maybe discuss would could be better, how it would be viable or not. Maybe even have your own ideas on what other kind of things could be added. I would love to discuss this.

Thanks

Kaktus

[Kaktus96]

I also just realized that maybe only unlocking the pet at lvl 30+ defeats the purpseo a little but now I thought about it a little and I realized that maybe you don't need a talent but just a few class quests starting at lvl 10, 30, 50(tank, utility, damage variant). But what if people have a treant pet AND go bear/cat form to level?
What if these pets automatically get dismissed if you enter any form that is not Moonkin, Travel or water form? If you enter bear or cat form your pet gets dismissed for example. This way its purely a balance druid gimmick that feral druids have no use for?

[Mativh]

The concept you are proposing of 3 unique permanent plant pets, specifically for balance druids, is interesting and well thought through.

The source of Trents;

They are ment to be actual trees in the world that get animated by the Druid to fight by his side.
They should not get summoned out of nowhere, and if they die they should either stay dead or be able to "sprout" again, or something similar.
They are not Spirits of Wolves like Orc shamans have, or being summonee from another plane of existence like demons.
The treants and other ambulatory plants, are concrete lifeforms found in the world, like the Hunters pets.
But the tree doodads of the map can't become all targetable nor should there be all over the world here and there targetable trees/plants like for a profession, but specifically for one ability.
Instead perhaps these pets could be summoned from seeds planted by the Druid in a soil pile in front of him with a complementary ability.
The 'Force of Nature' ability itself could serve as a reskin of Moonfire, and at the same time animate those planted seeds to become a plant pet, depending on whether the enemy or the soil pile is targeted.

From Warcraft 3, the The Keeper of the Groves 'Force of Nature' is his only ability missing in WoW. Druids got already the rest; Entangling roots, Thorns, Tranquility.

Further observations:

Reminds me of the Diablo 2 Druids summoning tree that had nature spirits, animals and plants. In warcraft 3 there were plants too.. WoW is perhaps the only RPG game where Druids don't have living beings as their aid.

I like the idea of more nature oriented abilities for the Druid, instead of them having Elune-based ones, in retail it was riddiculous how over time most of nature abilities got eroded and the Balance Druid came to be all about Elune(lunar), then later also solar theme... and for both Night Elves and Tauren! Typical Activisions train of thought, without any insight or coherence...

The part of Druidism that deals with astronomy and lunar/solar cycles has been in WoW split off as Elune worship, passed to the Night Elf Priests, and to a degree NE hunters too (Sisterhood of Elune &the Sentinels).
And when it comes to Tauren Druids; it made even less sense to have Elune-based abilities.

Going a little off topic:

For Starfire ability's nature/druid-oriented reskin I have something in mind too, I'll add it here in case the Moonfire reskin to Force of Nature would be considered:

Willowisp Rank 1
95 Mana, 30 yd range
3.5 sec cast
Requires level 20

Causes 95 to 115 Arcane damage to the target.
Upon a critical hit, a Wisp is invoked that follows the target and detonates upon contact; dealing 15 to 25 Arcane damage.

Values and ranks and animation all remain the same as Starfire. It'd only have an additional mechanism, the Wisp being invoked. All talents that improve Starfire would instead improve Willowisp.

Improved Starfire would be replaced with:

Improved Willowisp
5 Ranks Balance Talent

Reduces the cast time of Willowisp by 0.1/0.2/0.3/0.4/0.5 sec and the Wisps detonation has a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to stun the target for 3 sec.

The wisp detonation would cause a 10% damage increase on average from the original Starfire. It could be offset by not including it anymore in Moonfury talent or decreasing the initial damage values.

[Kaktus96]

I like the idea of more nature based abilities for Druids, especially ones that are in Warcraft 3 but were left out of WoW, like summon treant. Add 2 more nature-druid-related ones, and when it comes to starfire and moonfire... they are Elune related and should have never been Druid abilities, they should replace the Night Elf Priests Smite and Holy Fire, and the talents improving them too. When it comes to Tauren Druids.. they don't worship Elune, it never made sense for them to have those abilities.

Trents are ment to be actual trees in the world that get animated by the Druid and fight by his side.
They should not get summoned out of nowhere, and if they die they should either stay dead or be able to "sprout" again but their level lowered to how they were when first time animated, given they'd be permanent.

The concept you are proposing is quite interesting, definitely worth considering, I liked the Diablo 2 Druids summoning tree that had nature spirits, animals and plants.

Thats an entirely different topic with the elune based abilities but I agree. I would love for the night elve priest to have elune spells instead of the holy light. It would be a huge undertaking though to make custom skins for abilities fitting for each races lore.

I guess it doesn't make much sense to just summon treants out of nowhere. Thats why I created this post, what would be a proper solution to this? Have to be nearby a tree or maybe need seeds to start summoning them like the warlock needs soulstones?

[Mativh]

Thats an entirely different topic with the elune based abilities but I agree. I would love for the night elve priest to have elune spells instead of the holy light. It would be a huge undertaking though to make custom skins for abilities fitting for each races lore.

It's not essential in order for your idea to be implemented, but a mere reskin in my opinion would be a consistent way to give Plant pets to Druids, and could be used to address all the nuances that come with it.
It could be done by reskinning Moonfire into "Force of Nature", and giving it a secondary use; summoning of plant pets from what the Druid would plant (details below).
That way the familiar play style and game mechanics would remain relatively unchanged and the development and balancing kept at minimum, while the Druid class would gain a significant upgrade in it's lore-accuracy.

I guess it doesn't make much sense to just summon treants out of nowhere. Thats why I created this post, what would be a proper solution to this? Have to be nearby a tree or maybe need seeds to start summoning them like the warlock needs soulstones?

I'll chip in my perspective how the Plant pets could take shape in game, keeping it on a similar level of complexity as other class pets and related talents, so it's considerable for development/implementation;

Section 1;
There could be 2 abilities:

Plant
Balance ability learned at level 20. 10 second cast.
Requires a shovel, unless shapeshifted into a cat or a bear. Can only be used outdoors.

Use on one of the following items in your inventory, in order to plant them in the soil:

Rank 1 (level 20): Treant Sapling



Rank 2 (level 26): Treant Sapling, Timberling Seed:



Rank 3 (level 32): Treant Sapling, Timberling Seed, Lasher Sprout:



These 3 are specifically for the Balance ability below, but the Plant ability could let you plant other things too, perhaps used in Restoration.
The 'Plant' ability could also have some interaction with the herbalism profession.

The second ability would replace Moonfire:

Force of Nature
Balance Ability learned at level 4,
Instant, 25 mana, 30 yard.

Call upon the primal essence of nature, dealing from 9 to 12 Nature damage and then an additional 12 Nature damage over 9 sec.

It'd be basically a lore-adequate reskin/replacement of the Moonfire ability, it would work the same way, have the same ranks and values, just deal Nature damage instead of Arcane.

Section 2;
These abilities wouls be affected by the following talents:

Improved Force of Nature
5 ranks Balance Talent

Increases the damage and critical strike chance of your Force of Nature spell by 3/6/9/12/15%.

This talent would replace 'Improved Moonfire' and remain to be a prerequisite for the Vengeance talent.
Since we're at it, I've increased the value from the original 10% to 15%, because Moonfire needed it.

'Force of Nature' would also be affected by the same talents Moonfire was; Nature's Reach, Vengeance, Moonglow, and Moonfury (renamed to Untamed Nature's Fury).

Positioned next to it, where 'Improved Entangling Roots' is (which would be moved to the first row next to 'Improved Nature's Grasp'), would instead be the following talent, with 'Improved Force of Nature' as a prerequisite:

Keeper of the Grove
1 Rank Balance Talent

Allow the Force of Nature to be used on what you've planted.
If used on a planted Treant Sapling; summon a Treant to fight by your side.
If used on a planted Timberling Seed; summon a Timberling to fight by your side.
If used on a planted Lasher Sprout; summon a Lasher to fight by your side.

The prereq on the 'Keeper of the Grove' talent would make 'Force of Natures' pet-summoning capacity require a little deeper dive into the Balance tree.
This would basically turn the 'Force of Nature' at level 20 into an ability with dual use, either an offensive spell (that replaces Moonfire and works the same way) if an enemy is targeted, or if targeting what you've planted, an ability that summons an ambulatory plant pet to fight for you.

Deeper in the Balance tree, left to the Moonfury talent (which'd be renamed to Untamed Fury), would be two Plant pet specialization talents:

Improved Keeper of the Grove
3 ranks Balance talent

Increases the effectiveness of your Treant, Timberling and Lashers abilities by 10/20/30%.

The second Pet Specialization talent would also address the pets permanence:
(this could be ommited, but it'd enrich the Plant pet concept)

I'd also prefer them to be permanent, but mainly for Balance Druids (permanently sustainable), that's why I'd add to all of them inherently the following debuff:

Mark of the Ancients

Every 5 minutes, while the Plant pet is alive, it gains the 'Mark of the Ancients' debuff, which:
Increases the pets intellect and stamina by 2%.
Increases damage taken by 5%.
Reduces the movement speed, attack speed and casting speed by 2%.
Stacks up to 20 times.

And next to the talent 'Improved Keeper of the Grove', with it as a prerequisite, there would be the following new talent, that would make having the Plant pet more sustainable long term for Balance Druids:

Defense of the Ancients
2 Ranks Balance Talent
(a deeply rooted Druidic concept and a reference to a popular custom Warcraft 3 map)

Your pets 'Mark of the Ancients' debuff also increases received healing from (only the) Druid Restoration spells by 3/6% per debuff stack.

It'd make keeping the same Plant Pet for long an interesting trade-off choice, that favors deeply specced Balance Druids.

Section 3;
Planting material sources:

1. The initial planting material (Treant Sapling, Timberling Seed, Lasher Sprout) is given in a Druid-only quest.
2. If the plant companion dies, a new one needs to be planted, the planting material can be looted from their corpse.
3. Also would have a chance to drop from all mobs of the corresponding type (all Lasher type mobs, for example Bloodpetals, would have a chance to drop a Lasher Sprout)
4. Sold at vendor in Moonglade, limited quantity with a 5 minute respawn rate (that vendor would also sell a shovel for the 'Plant' ability)

Section 4;
Plant Pet Faction Skins:

1st option - no skins, plant material looting from mobs;
There would be one skin per pet type for both plants, regardless of the Druids race, their planting material lootable from plant mobs of their type (apart from other sources listed above), for example Lasher sprouts having a chance to drop from Bloodpelat mobs.

2nd option - race dependant skins, no mob looting;
There could be a skin variant for each plant pet type depending on the Druids race of choice, but unfortunately in that case looting from plant mobs in the world would make no sense, and instead the planting material would be obtained only from the quest, looted corpse of the plant pet, or a faction-restricted vendors in Moonglade. There could be for example Oaken Treant Sapling for Night Elves and Birch Treant Sapling for Tauren.

3rd option - skin variants depending on the type of plant material looted from various mobs;
something extra, could be the plant pets having varying skins/models (since there are quite many in the game), regardless of the Druids race, but depending on the planted material. The faction-neutral Moonglade vendor would sell only an initial skin type planting material, more special ones would have tobe looted from corresponding plant mobs, for example Thistleshrub mobs dropping Thistleshrub seeds, resulting in a different look for that plant pet type than from the initial Timberling seed.

4th option - like option 3, but different plant material from mobs would also grant ability differences;
Mobs in the world would have a chance to drop special types of planting material, but not only the skins of the summoned pet would differ but also their abilities, for example Tar Beast seeds allowing the Timberling plant to disarm the enemy like Tar Beasts can, if summoned from Tar beast seeds. As much as I'd like this, it'd be too development-heavy, so I'd stick to the previous options.

This would be the foundation for the Druids plant pet concept, then what they can specifically do would be explored.
What do you think?

[revised/refined after the reply]

[Kaktus96]

I'll chip in my perspective how it could take shape in game;

There could be 2 abilities:

Plant
Use on one of the following items in your inventory, in order to plant them in the soil:

Treant Sapling


Timberling Seed


Lasher Sprout


These 3 are specifically for the Balance ability below, but the Plant ability could let you plant other things too, perhaps used in Restoration.
This ability could also have some interaction with the herbalism profession.

Force of Nature
Balance Talent Ability
6 second cast.
Use on a planted Treant Sapling to summon a Treant to fight by your side.
Use on a planted Timberling Seed to summon a Timberling to fight by your side.
Use on a planted Lasher Sprout to summon a Lasher to fight by your side.
Or if targeting an enemy, deal Nature damage.

It'd be a twofold ability, used to summon a plant pet if targeting planted objects, or an offensive nature ability.

The initial planting material is given in a Druid-only (repeatable) quest.
If the plant companion dies, a new one needs to be planted, the planting material can be looted from their corpse, and also would have a chance to drop from all mobs of the corresponding type.

The Force of Nature would replace the Improved Moonfire talent, however be positioned in one rank below (level 20), and be a prerequisite for another talent named Improved Force of Nature, obtainable two rows below it (at level 30), that would make Force of Nature specifically considerable for deeper specced Balance Druid.

This would be the foundation, then what they can specifically do would be explored.
What do you think?

Jesus, thats a fantastic idea with the saplings. The drop from the dead companion and corresponding enemies is fantastic aswell. In your opinion would it be a permanent companion until it dies or a temporary one? Because my vision of this ability is more of a permanent pet like a hunter or warlock has but ofc as soon as it dies you will need a reagent like you mentioned.

The moonfire thing I agree with lorewise but not gameplaywise. I think it should stay a druid ability even though it would really fit night elf priests. It would interfere too much with the classes designs and would open a bottomless pit of class changes to fit more according to warcraft lore.

Does the planting material you get from the repeatable quest give you the various seeds for the saplings? If we have to rely on drops from corresponding nature elementals it could be hard to get when it comes to Lashers and Treants I think. Timberlings sprouts would be rather easy to get for the Alliance but Horde could have some more problems with it.

Can you elaborate more on the offensive ability of the when it comes to "Force of Nature"? An offensive ability like a dot or maybe aoe? As you mentioned it can either be used to summon a treant or be used as an offensive nature ability.

[Mativh]

Jesus, thats a fantastic idea with the saplings. The drop from the dead companion and corresponding enemies is fantastic aswell. In your opinion would it be a permanent companion until it dies or a temporary one? Because my vision of this ability is more of a permanent pet like a hunter or warlock has but ofc as soon as it dies you will need a reagent like you mentioned.

The moonfire thing I agree with lorewise but not gameplaywise. I think it should stay a druid ability even though it would really fit night elf priests. It would interfere too much with the classes designs and would open a bottomless pit of class changes to fit more according to warcraft lore.

Does the planting material you get from the repeatable quest give you the various seeds for the saplings? If we have to rely on drops from corresponding nature elementals it could be hard to get when it comes to Lashers and Treants I think. Timberlings sprouts would be rather easy to get for the Alliance but Horde could have some more problems with it.

Can you elaborate more on the offensive ability of the when it comes to "Force of Nature"? An offensive ability like a dot or maybe aoe? As you mentioned it can either be used to summon a treant or be used as an offensive nature ability.

I'm glad you like it, it's shaping to be a very cool addition to the Balance Druid; it certainly wouldn't be called a meme spec anymore with these unique Plant pets.

I've revised/refined the initial reply quite a bit, also taking into consideration the things you've mentioned, take a second look.

[Ishilu]

Interesting idea and definitely worth putting some more thought into.

I guess it doesn't make much sense to just summon treants out of nowhere.

Bro, we're playing a game where people can fit several horses into a single backpack. You worry too much at this point :-). A reagent requirement is a good idea but I wouldn't make the summoning too elaborate beyond that. Imagine grouping up with a druid for a dungeon and then waiting for several minutes and watching them do some gardening.

[Kaktus96]

Interesting idea and definitely worth putting some more thought into.

I guess it doesn't make much sense to just summon treants out of nowhere.

Bro, we're playing a game where people can fit several horses into a single backpack. You worry too much at this point :-). A reagent requirement is a good idea but I wouldn't make the summoning too elaborate beyond that. Imagine grouping up with a druid for a dungeon and then waiting for several minutes and watching them do some gardening.

You're right. The question is if people want it and how they want it to be implemented. If they want a more lore accurate kind of spell or a casual one.
Just a summon with a reagent or actual planting of sapling+loot mechanic additionally to the other options that can be done with the seeds.

[Mativh]

A reagent requirement is a good idea but I wouldn't make the summoning too elaborate beyond that. Imagine grouping up with a druid for a dungeon and then waiting for several minutes and watching them do some gardening.

"Several minutes"? I've specified that the proposed 'Plant' ability would have a 10 sec cast, like a Warlock summoning its pet. And the Force of Nature would be instant cast.

Bro, we're playing a game where people can fit several horses into a single backpack. You worry too much at this point :-).

Some things are up to the immersion-standard set by vanilla wow, others are more like retail wow. Why would you cherrypick the most retail-like features to make a point, when there are also many things in vanilla WoW that aren't that gamey, and became simplified or removed.
This "mount in the inventory" could also be used to justify retail-changes, for example:
Why would bows need arrows anymore, priests need class racials, learning abilities need a class trainer, or weapon skills, or travelling instead of teleporting, rogue poison profession etc.. since WoW is "just a game where you can have a mount in the inventory"...
That is kind of disingenuous and not the direction or immersion-standard of Vanilla/Turtle WoW.
See the reply below.

[Mativh]

The question is if people want it and how they want it to be implemented. If they want a more lore accurate kind of spell or a casual one.
Just a summon with a reagent or actual planting of sapling+loot mechanic additionally to the other options that can be done with the seeds.

Even though it'd be 3 permanent pet types, each with unique abilities and perhaps faction-specific skins, the Balance Druid pet system is still much less complex than the Warlock or Hunter one (as can be seen in the comparison below).
It shouldn't be reduced to a retail-like casual ability, that'd be a pity.
I think that permanent pets should be compared to other permanent pets, not to things that are cherrypicked and don't represent the vanilla-level immersion;

Class pet system complexity comparison:

Warlocks:

- 14 abilities: Drain Soul, Dark Pact, Soul Link, Master Summoner, Demonic Sacrifice, Inferno, Demon Portal, Health Fuel, Mana Fuel, Curse of Doom, Summon Imp / Succubus / Felhunter / Voidwalker
- 12 talents (if not counting the ability ones): Improved Imp / Succubus / Voidwalker / Firebolt / Lash of Pain / Enslave Demon, Fel Stamina / Intellect / Domination, Unholy Power, Master Demonologist
- Needs to use Drain Soul on a dying mob
- Store a reagent; soulstone (that doesn't stack)
- 4 main pet types: Imp, Voidwalker, Succubus, Felhunter
- 16 pet abilities (4 for each of the 4 main types)
- with every class trainer in the world, a demon trainer
- abilities and their ranks bought and learned
- 10 second summon cast
- can turn any demon mob in the world into a pet with Enslave Demon
- 3 "lesser" types: Felguard, Doomguard, Infernal
- each of the 3 also with unique abilities (no training)
- needs a party that sacrifices someone to summon a Felguard
- needs to curse someone to summon a Doomguard
- the non-main type demons can turn on the Warlock and need to be re-enslaved

Druid:

- 2 abilities: Plant, Force of Nature
- 4 talents: Keeper of the Grove, Improved Force of Nature / Keeper of the Grove, Defense of the Ancients
- 3 pet types: Treant, Timberling, Lasher
- needs to use the ability 'Plant' to plant either Timberling Seed, Treant Sapling or Lasher Sprout, with a shovel outdoors, 10 sec cast time
- Moonfire seemlessly reskinned as Force of Nature
- needs to use Force of Nature to "summon" the plant pet from what has been planted, instant cast
- Moonglade vendor selling the Plant ability reagents
- the 'Plant' reagents can be also looted from corresponding mob types or from the pets corpse
(alternatively, no looting from mobs, but separate reagents sold for NEs/Taurens by separate Moonglade Plant reagent vendors, with faction-specific pet skins)
- only 1 faction-neutral Pet Trainer in Moonglade, teaching pet abilities and their ranks for all types
- 12 pet abilities (Each of the 3 types knowing up to 4)
- all types having inherent debuff applied over time, which could be ommited, together with the Defense of the Ancients talent

[up to change]

Hunters:

- 11 abilities: Call / Dismiss / Mend / Feed / Tame / Revive Pet, Eyes of the / Tame Beast, Intimidation, Bestial Wrath, Beast Training
- 12 talents: Improved Mend & Revive Pet / Eyes of the Beast, Bestial Swiftness, Ferocity, Endurance Training, Spirit Bond, Frenzy, Unleashed Fury, Thick Hide, Pathfinding
- Needs a taming rod and tames a mob in the world
- 17 pet types: Bats, Bears, Boars, Carrion Birds, Cats, Crabs, Crocolisks, Gorillas, Hyenas, Owls, Raptors, Scorpids, Spiders, Tallstriders, Turtles, Wind Serpents, Wolves
- each type includes multiple pet options, among which for example their attack speed and appearance can vary
- Pets have happiness and loyalty, which must be maintained by feeding them, each pet family has a unique diet, the pet if unhappy can run away
- at every inn in the world there is a Stable Master NPC, that let's a hunter store choose between 3 pets at the same time
21 pet abilities;
- There are Beast trainer NPCs next to Hunter Trainers that teach 8 pet abilities and their ranks
- the Hunter can learn up to 13 pet abilities by observing the pet, and then stores the ability in Beast Training, from which it can be taught to other pets
- the abilities are either unique or shared among various pet types

I think the proposed ideas above are an adequate amount of simplicity, considering that the pet would be permanent, 3 types, and the Balance tree would benefit from development, as it is considered right now a lore-inacurrate non-serious spec that almost nobody uses especially during levelling (something Turtle WoW is focusing on).
It's, on the other hand, as conceived of so far, an adequate amount of complexity in my opinion, as in the Druids case the plant pets would be part of a talent tree that is mainly dedicated to spellcasting.

[Mativh]

A suggestion for the Section 5;
Plant Pet Ability Training:

Up to 4 abilities taught to each Plant pet type.
1 faction-neutral NPC named Shan'do (honored teacher in Darnassian).
Teaching all pet abilities and their ranks.
Found in Moonglade (with the planting material vendor beside him).
When talked to, he'd have categories of Treant / Timberling / Lasher, not all abilities and their ranks mixed together in one list.

That trainer would be a copy of the NPC model of Ancient of Lore


I think this would be a good way to implement the Druid plant pet ability system.

A simpler alternative would be the plant pets inherently knowing their abilities, which ones and what rank depending on what level they are when they get animated.

As you've said; the Treant would be better at providing utility, the Timberling at tanking and the Lasher at dealing damage.

[Kaktus96]

First off, I really want to thank you Mativh for participating in this thread here. All your post are of high quality and very well thought out. When I made this thread I didn't think I would get someone who would be this involved in all this.

Now to your 2 posts you made.
I still think it is too much to ask the devs to completely remove the moonfire ability and replace it with a nature themed one. It would be fantastic ngl but at the same time it would probably interfere too much with vanilla gameplay as we have known it for so many years even though by that logic the treant summoning would also be just as much of an interference.

When it comes to talents I really like what you came up with but if we are to keep moonfire, which is probably what they would do if they decide to implement parts of my idea, then I think the better solution is to reduce the amount of points you can spend on various talents in the balance talent tree in order to free up some points for the treant talents.

For example:
Improved Moonfire
Instead of it having 5 talent points just make it 3.
Point 1 like before, improves crit chance and damage by 2%, second point by 5%, third by 10%. Instead of the 2% increments before.

Improved Starfire
Instead of it having 5 talent points make it 3, just like with improved moonfire.
Reduces cast time by 0,1, 0,3, 0,5 seconds. 5, 10, 15% chance to stun the target.

Combine the talents for improved entangling roots and improved thorns into one.
Just like they did with the improved life and mana drain from warlock I don't think this one is impossible to do.

And it makes thematic sense since it combines the thorny damage from the roots and the thorny damage from the buff.

I would probably call it something like Nature's Revenge
It will still have 3 points like both of them had each before and reduces chance for pushback for entangling roots by 40/70/100% and increases thorns damage by 25/50/75%.

With all this there are possible 4-7 unused talent points that can be put into treant talents.
___________

When it comes to summoning or planting the treants I think the 10 seconds is just fine. So just to get this right, we plant the seed which needs a shovel item and then we can summon it by letting it grow for 10 seconds, correct? I think this is fine. Warlock summons also take about 10 seconds unless ofc you spec into summoning them quicker. Possible annoyance here is that you need a shovel and seeds in your inventory space which is already often full when you are at a lower level. Maybe the shovel could be a bit too much, I like the idea though.

Next I would like to talk about the abilities of the possible treants. In my original Post I already made some abilities up but with no specific numbers or ofc subject to change.

I'd also prefer them to be permanent, but mainly for Balance Druids (permanently sustainable), that's why I'd add to all of them inherently the following debuff:

Mark of the Ancients

Every 5 minutes, while the Plant pet is alive, it gains the 'Mark of the Ancients' debuff, which:
Increases the pets intellect and stamina by 2%.
Increases damage taken by 5%.
Reduces the movement speed, attack speed and casting speed by 2%.
Stacks up to 20 times.

And next to the talent 'Improved Keeper of the Grove', with it as a prerequisite, there would be the following new talent, that would make having the Plant pet more sustainable long term for Balance Druids:

Defense of the Ancients
2 Ranks Balance Talent
(a deeply rooted Druidic concept and a reference to a popular custom Warcraft 3 map)

Your pets 'Mark of the Ancients' debuff also increases received healing from (only the) Druid Restoration spells by 3/6% per debuff stack.

It'd make keeping the same Plant Pet for long an interesting trade-off choice, that favors deeply specced Balance Druids.

I also want to adress this here. The Mark of the Anciencts. I guess it is supposed to simulate the withering of a treant when summoned but I think that this is a bit too much. Even the the proposed ability to get rid of this debuff. Trees are long lived, aren't they? I don't see the need to make it unnecessarily complicated. If you don't go for the talent you'd have to resummon the pet every now and then and it already puts a strain on the reagents you will need. I'd just make it a permanent pet like hunters or warlocks have though ofc the idea is great we also have to make sure the players are having fun because a lot of people do not appreciate lore as much as we do or at least don't put this much significance on it.

Section 4;
Plant Pet Faction Skins:

1st option - no skins, plant material looting from mobs;
There would be one skin per pet type for both plants, regardless of the Druids race, their planting material lootable from plant mobs of their type (apart from other sources listed above), for example Lasher sprouts having a chance to drop from Bloodpelat mobs.

2nd option - race dependant skins, no mob looting;
There could be a skin variant for each plant pet type depending on the Druids race of choice, but unfortunately in that case looting from plant mobs in the world would make no sense, and instead the planting material would be obtained only from the quest, looted corpse of the plant pet, or a faction-restricted vendors in Moonglade. There could be for example Oaken Treant Sapling for Night Elves and Birch Treant Sapling for Tauren.

3rd option - skin variants depending on the type of plant material looted from various mobs;
something extra, could be the plant pets having varying skins/models (since there are quite many in the game), regardless of the Druids race, but depending on the planted material. The faction-neutral Moonglade vendor would sell only an initial skin type planting material, more special ones would have tobe looted from corresponding plant mobs, for example Thistleshrub mobs dropping Thistleshrub seeds, resulting in a different look for that plant pet type than from the initial Timberling seed.

4th option - like option 3, but different plant material from mobs would also grant ability differences;
Mobs in the world would have a chance to drop special types of planting material, but not only the skins of the summoned pet would differ but also their abilities, for example Tar Beast seeds allowing the Timberling plant to disarm the enemy like Tar Beasts can, if summoned from Tar beast seeds. As much as I'd like this, it'd be too development-heavy, so I'd stick to the previous options.

When it comes to skins I don't think they should be altering abilities. I would stick to faction specific skins. The druid already has faction specific skins for the various forms he has so I think thats as far as we should go.

Section 1;
There could be 2 abilities:

Plant
Balance ability learned at level 20. 10 second cast.
Requires a shovel, unless shapeshifted into a cat or a bear. Can only be used outdoors.

Use on one of the following items in your inventory, in order to plant them in the soil:

Rank 1 (level 20): Treant Sapling



Rank 2 (level 26): Treant Sapling, Timberling Seed:



Rank 3 (level 32): Treant Sapling, Timberling Seed, Lasher Sprout:



These 3 are specifically for the Balance ability below, but the Plant ability could let you plant other things too, perhaps used in Restoration.
The 'Plant' ability could also have some interaction with the herbalism profession.

The second ability would replace Moonfire:

Force of Nature
Balance Ability learned at level 4,
Instant, 25 mana, 30 yard.

Call upon the primal essence of nature, dealing from 9 to 12 Nature damage and then an additional 12 Nature damage over 9 sec.

It'd be basically a lore-adequate reskin/replacement of the Moonfire ability, it would work the same way, have the same ranks and values, just deal Nature damage instead of Arcane.

Again here I don't think they would want to replace moonfire. Would be cool if they do but I don't see it happening.
So instead I would suggest just having a plan ability and then being able to interact with the sapling that was planted to summon it. All in all 2 seconds to plant, 8 seconds to summon maybe?

[Mativh]

Reply:

First off, I really want to thank you Mativh for participating in this thread here. All your post are of high quality and very well thought out. When I made this thread I didn't think I would get someone who would be this involved in all this.

Now to your 2 posts you made.
I still think it is too much to ask the devs to completely remove the moonfire ability and replace it with a nature themed one. It would be fantastic ngl but at the same time it would probably interfere too much with vanilla gameplay as we have known it for so many years even though by that logic the treant summoning would also be just as much of an interference.

When it comes to talents I really like what you came up with but if we are to keep moonfire, which is probably what they would do if they decide to implement parts of my idea, then I think the better solution is to reduce the amount of points you can spend on various talents in the balance talent tree in order to free up some points for the treant talents.

For example:
Improved Moonfire
Instead of it having 5 talent points just make it 3.
Point 1 like before, improves crit chance and damage by 2%, second point by 5%, third by 10%. Instead of the 2% increments before.

Improved Starfire
Instead of it having 5 talent points make it 3, just like with improved moonfire.
Reduces cast time by 0,1, 0,3, 0,5 seconds. 5, 10, 15% chance to stun the target.

Combine the talents for improved entangling roots and improved thorns into one.
Just like they did with the improved life and mana drain from warlock I don't think this one is impossible to do.

And it makes thematic sense since it combines the thorny damage from the roots and the thorny damage from the buff.

I would probably call it something like Nature's Revenge
It will still have 3 points like both of them had each before and reduces chance for pushback for entangling roots by 40/70/100% and increases thorns damage by 25/50/75%.

With all this there are possible 4-7 unused talent points that can be put into treant talents.
___________

When it comes to summoning or planting the treants I think the 10 seconds is just fine. So just to get this right, we plant the seed which needs a shovel item and then we can summon it by letting it grow for 10 seconds, correct? I think this is fine. Warlock summons also take about 10 seconds unless ofc you spec into summoning them quicker. Possible annoyance here is that you need a shovel and seeds in your inventory space which is already often full when you are at a lower level. Maybe the shovel could be a bit too much, I like the idea though.

Next I would like to talk about the abilities of the possible treants. In my original Post I already made some abilities up but with no specific numbers or ofc subject to change.

I also want to adress this here. The Mark of the Anciencts. I guess it is supposed to simulate the withering of a treant when summoned but I think that this is a bit too much. Even the the proposed ability to get rid of this debuff. Trees are long lived, aren't they? I don't see the need to make it unnecessarily complicated. If you don't go for the talent you'd have to resummon the pet every now and then and it already puts a strain on the reagents you will need. I'd just make it a permanent pet like hunters or warlocks have though ofc the idea is great we also have to make sure the players are having fun because a lot of people do not appreciate lore as much as we do or at least don't put this much significance on it.

When it comes to skins I don't think they should be altering abilities. I would stick to faction specific skins. The druid already has faction specific skins for the various forms he has so I think thats as far as we should go.

Again here I don't think they would want to replace moonfire. Would be cool if they do but I don't see it happening.
So instead I would suggest just having a plan ability and then being able to interact with the sapling that was planted to summon it. All in all 2 seconds to plant, 8 seconds to summon maybe?

Thank you for the initiative and effort to make Turtle WoW better.
We understand each other.

Even though it'd be a good chance to combine the pets with the reskin, I definitely wouldn't want your idea to not be implemented just because it'd be tied to de-Elunisation of the Druid class which is a questionable topic, so the reskin ideas should be a separate thing.

With the debuff the intention was to make the pet be more of a permanent choice for Balance only, but it's a little too complicated.

I agree that the talents should be adjusted for the Plant Pet specialization one. I think however that Improved Entangling Roots should be where Improved Nature's Grasp is, combining both into one, as both deal with the same spell. Since Thorns is together with the Roots distinct iconic abilities of the Druid since W3, and Nature's Grasp deals with Entangling Roots. That'd free up 3 points. Another 3 could be freed up by Natural Shapeshifter being moved to the Feral trees first row, that has only 42 max points (Balance has 50) and it fits there more. Now We'd have space for a talent of 5 points improving the pets, and another of 1 point for Force of Nature available at level 20 in the Balance tree. Improved Thorns could be moved one row up where Improved Entangling roots was which now would be merged with Improved Natures Grasp in the first row, and improved Force of nature could be a level 30 5 rank talent next to natires geace with force of nature as a prereq.This way no weird durations that make the pet die for no reason or complicated debuffs, just a balance ability with deeper balance improvement. I'd keep Moonfire/Starfire at 5 points as they are main offensive abilities. The "Plant" ability could be simply taught as a 20 balance ability.

The skin could then be simply different for Tauren/Night Elf the same way shapeshifting models are different. But it'd require the same reagents, which could drop from plant mobs.

The plant ability could not need a shovel to simplify things, but it'd make sense if it was outdoors-only.

Update:

Plant
Balance ability learned at level 20. 2 second cast.
Can only be used outdoors.

Use on one of the following items in your inventory, in order to plant them in the soil:
Rank 1 (level 20): Treant Sapling
Rank 2 (level 28): Treant Sapling, Timberling Seed
Rank 3 (level 36): Treant Sapling, Timberling Seed, Lasher Sprout

Talent changes:

Improved Entangling Roots merging with Improved Nature's Grasp, positioned next to Nature's Grasp with it as a prerequisite:

Improved Entangling Roots
4 ranks Balance Talent

Gives you a 25/50/75/100% chance to avoid interruption caused by damage while casting Entangling Roots.
Additionally, increases the chance for your Nature's Grasp to entangle an enemy by 15/30/45/65%.

Natural Shapeshifter moved to the first row of the Feral tree.

Improved Thorns moved to the row above it.

Where Improved Thorns was, a new ability:

Force of Nature
Balance Tree Ability. 8 sec cast time.

Cast it on what you've planted.
If used on a planted Treant Sapling; summon from it a Treant to fight by your side.
If used on a planted Timberling Seed; summon from it a Timberling to fight by your side.
If used on a planted Lasher Sprout; summon from it a Lasher to fight by your side.

Force of Nature would be a prerequisite of the following talent, positioned two rows below, next to Nature's Grace:

Improved Force of Nature
5 ranks Balance Talent

Increases the damage done by your plant pets and their abilities effectiveness by 6/12/18/24/30%.

Planting material sources:

1. The initial planting material (Treant Sapling, Timberling Seed, Lasher Sprout) is given in a Druid-only quest (at level 20, that also teaches the ability "Plant", & at 20 is when one can also pick up Force of Nature from the Balance tree).
2. If the plant companion dies, a new one needs to be planted, the planting material can be looted from their corpse.
3. Also would have a chance to drop from all mobs of the corresponding type (all Lasher type mobs, for example Bloodpetals, would have a chance to drop a Lasher Sprout)
4. Sold at vendor in Moonglade, limited quantity with a 5 minute respawn rate

Plant Pet Faction Skins:

Purely visual difference depending on whether the plant pet is summoned by a Night Elf or a Tauren.

[Botticelli]

I love this idea! Whether it be summoning three treants for a set amount of time, or having the option for a permanent pet in Boomkin or caster form, something of this nature would be an awesome addition to give Boomkin a bit more oomph and spec distinction. I hope the devs are reading!

[Kaktus96]

Reply:

First off, I really want to thank you Mativh for participating in this thread here. All your post are of high quality and very well thought out. When I made this thread I didn't think I would get someone who would be this involved in all this.

Now to your 2 posts you made.
I still think it is too much to ask the devs to completely remove the moonfire ability and replace it with a nature themed one. It would be fantastic ngl but at the same time it would probably interfere too much with vanilla gameplay as we have known it for so many years even though by that logic the treant summoning would also be just as much of an interference.

When it comes to talents I really like what you came up with but if we are to keep moonfire, which is probably what they would do if they decide to implement parts of my idea, then I think the better solution is to reduce the amount of points you can spend on various talents in the balance talent tree in order to free up some points for the treant talents.

For example:
Improved Moonfire
Instead of it having 5 talent points just make it 3.
Point 1 like before, improves crit chance and damage by 2%, second point by 5%, third by 10%. Instead of the 2% increments before.

Improved Starfire
Instead of it having 5 talent points make it 3, just like with improved moonfire.
Reduces cast time by 0,1, 0,3, 0,5 seconds. 5, 10, 15% chance to stun the target.

Combine the talents for improved entangling roots and improved thorns into one.
Just like they did with the improved life and mana drain from warlock I don't think this one is impossible to do.

And it makes thematic sense since it combines the thorny damage from the roots and the thorny damage from the buff.

I would probably call it something like Nature's Revenge
It will still have 3 points like both of them had each before and reduces chance for pushback for entangling roots by 40/70/100% and increases thorns damage by 25/50/75%.

With all this there are possible 4-7 unused talent points that can be put into treant talents.
___________

When it comes to summoning or planting the treants I think the 10 seconds is just fine. So just to get this right, we plant the seed which needs a shovel item and then we can summon it by letting it grow for 10 seconds, correct? I think this is fine. Warlock summons also take about 10 seconds unless ofc you spec into summoning them quicker. Possible annoyance here is that you need a shovel and seeds in your inventory space which is already often full when you are at a lower level. Maybe the shovel could be a bit too much, I like the idea though.

Next I would like to talk about the abilities of the possible treants. In my original Post I already made some abilities up but with no specific numbers or ofc subject to change.

I also want to adress this here. The Mark of the Anciencts. I guess it is supposed to simulate the withering of a treant when summoned but I think that this is a bit too much. Even the the proposed ability to get rid of this debuff. Trees are long lived, aren't they? I don't see the need to make it unnecessarily complicated. If you don't go for the talent you'd have to resummon the pet every now and then and it already puts a strain on the reagents you will need. I'd just make it a permanent pet like hunters or warlocks have though ofc the idea is great we also have to make sure the players are having fun because a lot of people do not appreciate lore as much as we do or at least don't put this much significance on it.

When it comes to skins I don't think they should be altering abilities. I would stick to faction specific skins. The druid already has faction specific skins for the various forms he has so I think thats as far as we should go.

Again here I don't think they would want to replace moonfire. Would be cool if they do but I don't see it happening.
So instead I would suggest just having a plan ability and then being able to interact with the sapling that was planted to summon it. All in all 2 seconds to plant, 8 seconds to summon maybe?

Thank you for the initiative and effort to make Turtle WoW better.
We understand each other.

Even though it'd be a good chance to combine the pets with the reskin, I definitely wouldn't want your idea to not be implemented just because it'd be tied to de-Elunisation of the Druid class which is a questionable topic, so the reskin ideas should be a separate thing.

With the debuff the intention was to make the pet be more of a permanent choice for Balance only, but it's a little too complicated.

I agree that the talents should be adjusted for the Plant Pet specialization one. I think however that Improved Entangling Roots should be where Improved Nature's Grasp is, combining both into one, as both deal with the same spell. Since Thorns is together with the Roots distinct iconic abilities of the Druid since W3, and Nature's Grasp deals with Entangling Roots. That'd free up 3 points. Another 3 could be freed up by Natural Shapeshifter being moved to the Feral trees first row, that has only 42 max points (Balance has 50) and it fits there more. Now We'd have space for a talent of 5 points improving the pets, and another of 1 point for Force of Nature available at level 20 in the Balance tree. Improved Thorns could be moved one row up where Improved Entangling roots was which now would be merged with Improved Natures Grasp in the first row, and improved Force of nature could be a level 30 5 rank talent next to natires geace with force of nature as a prereq.This way no weird durations that make the pet die for no reason or complicated debuffs, just a balance ability with deeper balance improvement. I'd keep Moonfire/Starfire at 5 points as they are main offensive abilities. The "Plant" ability could be simply taught as a 20 balance ability.

The skin could then be simply different for Tauren/Night Elf the same way shapeshifting models are different. But it'd require the same reagents, which could drop from plant mobs.

The plant ability could not need a shovel to simplify things, but it'd make sense if it was outdoors-only.

Update:

Plant
Balance ability learned at level 20. 2 second cast.
Can only be used outdoors.

Use on one of the following items in your inventory, in order to plant them in the soil:
Rank 1 (level 20): Treant Sapling
Rank 2 (level 28): Treant Sapling, Timberling Seed
Rank 3 (level 36): Treant Sapling, Timberling Seed, Lasher Sprout

Talent changes:

Improved Entangling Roots merging with Improved Nature's Grasp, positioned next to Nature's Grasp with it as a prerequisite:

Improved Entangling Roots
4 ranks Balance Talent

Gives you a 25/50/75/100% chance to avoid interruption caused by damage while casting Entangling Roots.
Additionally, increases the chance for your Nature's Grasp to entangle an enemy by 15/30/45/65%.

Natural Shapeshifter moved to the first row of the Feral tree.

Improved Thorns moved to the row above it.

Where Improved Thorns was, a new ability:

Force of Nature
Balance Tree Ability. 8 sec cast time.

Cast it on what you've planted.
If used on a planted Treant Sapling; summon from it a Treant to fight by your side.
If used on a planted Timberling Seed; summon from it a Timberling to fight by your side.
If used on a planted Lasher Sprout; summon from it a Lasher to fight by your side.

Force of Nature would be a prerequisite of the following talent, positioned two rows below, next to Nature's Grace:

Improved Force of Nature
5 ranks Balance Talent

Increases the damage done by your plant pets and their abilities effectiveness by 6/12/18/24/30%.

Planting material sources:

1. The initial planting material (Treant Sapling, Timberling Seed, Lasher Sprout) is given in a Druid-only quest.
2. If the plant companion dies, a new one needs to be planted, the planting material can be looted from their corpse.
3. Also would have a chance to drop from all mobs of the corresponding type (all Lasher type mobs, for example Bloodpetals, would have a chance to drop a Lasher Sprout)
4. Sold at vendor in Moonglade, limited quantity with a 5 minute respawn rate

Plant Pet Faction Skins:

Purely visual difference depending on whether the plant pet is summoned by a Night Elf or a Tauren.

Perfect! Nicely adapted to not be overcomplicated. Nice talent choices. Nice all around changes to the talent trees! As the guy above me said, I really hope the devs read this. :)

[Turboman]

Bump for devs to see.

[Kaktus96]

I see some people really like this idea and Mativh's fine tuning also helped make this idea more of a reality.
In my original Post I already talked about what the treants should have as abilities but we never discussed it or looked deeper into it. That is why I will bring them up again.

Timberling, the tank pet:
1. Standard auto attacks
2. Entangling punch: Attack that deals damage and creates a large amount of threat
3. Ground pound(Need a better name here): Pounds the ground with force dealing a small amount of damage around the timberling and interrupts spell casting.
Explanation: I know it sounds a little OP but other interrupts usually also stop the use of a particular school of magic for some time. Like a kick during a fireball disables all fire related spells for 5 seconds. This is also true for counterspell. This spell would only interrupt but not prevent the casting of spells directly after. However, it is a small AoE.
4. Rapid regrowth: In the lore bog beasts are known to be rather resilient and can regenerate quickly. This allows them to quickly heal over time while they are rooted in place(basically a consume shadows from the void walker)

Treant, utility pet:
1. Standard auto attacks
2. Treant's Wrath: Becomes immobilized for 5 and punches everything in a cone in front of it dealing damage.
Explanation: Basically the treant model looks like it could root itself with what looks like a tail so I came up with the idea that it roots itself like that put starts wildly punching and cleaving everything in a cone in front of it.
3. Grasping Roots: The treant calls upon the roots in the ground to try and grab the target slowing it down ny x% for x seconds
4. Touch of the Ancients: A debuff that makes offensive spells of the druid on the target regnerate some mana
Explanation: Even with the improved Omen of Clarity the boomkin druid still suffers greatly from mana problems. This helps alleviate this issue a little bit. Key here is to not make it overpowered. This would make a fantastic pet for raiding or running dungeons btw and should only apply to the druid and not the whole raid. That would be op af.

Lasher, damaging pet:
1. Standard auto attacks
2. Thorny whip: Damages the target and applies a bleed. Stacks 3 times.
3. Viny swiftness: Increases movement by 30% and attack speed by 50% for 10 seconds
4. Lashing out: Enrages the lasher, increasing its size and attack range for 10 seconds. In this state, the auto attacks also cleave up to 3 targets. After the effect ends it applies a "Withered roots" debuff on the lasher where it reduces its movement speed by 25% for 15 seconds and increases the damge done to it by 33%.
Explanation: This is basically an all in ability. Coupled with Viny swiftness. If the Lasher fails to deliver it is easily kited and destroyed thanks to the "Withered roots" debuff.

As you all can see, the 4th ability really makes the various treant pets shine in their respective role. That is why I think they shouldn't just be taught by a treant trainer like the other abilities. The Rank 1 of these abilities should drop at various nature themed dungeons throughout Azeroth.

Rapid regrowth should drop by Verdan the Everliving in Wailing Caverns.
The Timberling is the first pet that is unlocked so it would be a great way to introduce these special abilities by obtaining it in a dungeon.

Touch of the Ancients should be a random drop from the treants that are killable within Crescent Grove. Wouldn't that be fitting to have a TWoW original dungeon be part of the process to make your treant pets better? I think so and the level at which you can obtain it is also nice! A few levels before you can become a boomkin!

Lashing out should be a drop from Razorlash in Maraudon. It is a lasher. It is a boss. It's perfect, right? This could also be a droppable item from Lashers in Maraudon or Dire Maul but I think since there is already a Lasher as a boss that Razorlash is the perfect candidate for it to drop this ability.

[Botticelli]

As I noted before, this is an awesome idea and I really want to see it happen. My only issue would be with the Plant ability only usable outdoors. While I understand the reason, and is great for open world action, the pet would potentially not be as useful in instances that are mostly indoors. If your pet plant died during the instance, it could not be brought back to finish the instance like a Hunter's pet or Warlock's demon. Maybe the Rebirth ability could be used on the plant pet to get around this issue?

[Kaktus96]

As I noted before, this is an awesome idea and I really want to see it happen. My only issue would be with the Plant ability only usable outdoors. While I understand the reason, and is great for open world action, the pet would potentially not be as useful in instances that are mostly indoors. If your pet plant died during the instance, it could not be brought back to finish the instance like a Hunter's pet or Warlock's demon. Maybe the Rebirth ability could be used on the plant pet to get around this issue?

Possible fix for this is that if you do it outdoors you can do it whenever but if you want to do it indoors you have to have some soil with you maybe.