3-man Dungeons | Thoughts?

[Vernalsole1355]

Alright, so, I've got a suggestion I'd like some feedback on.

Turtle WoW has a small population. I'd say average 150-200, peak ~250. It's cross-faction. So there should be enough people to run dungeons with. Yes, but there's a slight problem. Certain dungeons, such as the Ragefire Chasm or the Stockades are within a faction's capital city, which is enemy territory, and to get to the dungeon as the other faction, your gonna have to dodge the AI guards, which assuming your in the level range of the dungeons, will get you one shot. And no, corpse running does not work.

This severely interferes with players like myself who want to run Dungeons. Yes, I have a group of friends who I can run with, but others may not, and may not necessarily have the time to try and organize a 5-man group. Everyone's time has to line up, they have to be able to get to the dungeon, and then spend a minimum hour & a half in the dungeon itself. A 5-man group is somewhat difficult to get, especially for low to mid level dungeons.

So this is my proposal: What if Turtle WoW was to add a 3-man dungeon system. Similarly to how raids have 10-man variants instead of 25-man variants (or 40 in the case of Vanilla, unsure if they are here), Dungeons could have 5-man variants, and 3-man variants. The 3-man variants could compose a "standard" lineup of 1 Tank-1 DPS-1 Heal. This would make it a lot easier for players who are low to mid level to complete some of the dungeons.

Now like with the raids, not all of them could have 3-man variants, but at least some of them could. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

[Mikeloss]

I find this a good idea! I sometimes find myself in this situation. I am a casual player who loves the Turtle-Wow server and its community and although I use the LFT Addon (Looking for turtles :D) 4 people around my level are hard to come by, specially because I am a very slow paced player.
I think this might be possible using the same solution on dynamic raids. But only the Devs have the final say in the word (If it is possible I mean).

[Bazou]

It seems interesting. How about the dungeon loot , Same or different from 5 men version?

[Vernalsole1355]

Maybe the loot could be slightly less powerful than the 5-man groups as an incentive to try to get a 5-man group? Or would that be too unfair to those who cant get a 5-man but only a 3-man? Seems high-risk-high-rewardy to me.

[Unangwata]

My idea of solo dungeons was better...

[Mikeloss]

I read your Solo dungeon idea and its implementation could be very effortful.
One could technically tweak the server numbers like Mob Health, Damage, and Agroo range for existent 5-man dungeons but there is no real way to reach optimal balance without sacrificing difficulty and enjoyment.

I mean no disrespect but solo dungeons make it possible to completely disregard community challenge and social envelopment.

Sorry Unangwata, but you can always quickly deploy a mangosZERO emulator on your favorite operating system and tweak the whole server for optimal solo-play.

[Unangwata]

I read your Solo dungeon idea and its implementation could be very effortful.
One could technically tweak the server numbers like Mob Health, Damage, and Agroo range for existent 5-man dungeons but there is no real way to reach optimal balance without sacrificing difficulty and enjoyment.

I mean no disrespect but solo dungeons make it possible to completely disregard community challenge and social envelopment.

Sorry Unangwata, but you can always quickly deploy a mangosZERO emulator on your favorite operating system and tweak the whole server for optimal solo-play.

No problem. That's the way you see it. Truth is I don't have enough information to say if it is possible or not. However I believe it is.

[Mikeloss]

No problem. That's the way you see it. Truth is I don't have enough information to say if it is possible or not. However I believe it is.

Like I said, You could technically Rollout your own MangosZERO emualtor (It is really not that hard) and tweak the Realm / World settings in the configurations files to have rough idea of how this could be implemented.

I did this myself and I have my own Wrath of the Lich King Server tweaked for Single player experience.

Some dungeons it does not work because of the mechanics of some Bosses (You might get stunned for 5 secs) and have no Healer to keep you alive).

Or sometimes some dungeons have so many Enemies that your tweaking might be good for one dungeon but not for another one. (One gets way to easy for example)

But these are very few examples. I really encourge you to try your own server to play around with some ideas you might have! If you come up with something you really like, and, you got it working maybe the Devs here might give it a chance!

PS: I actually gave myself another time to think of Solo dungeons in vanilla and do like the idea I just do not know how it could be balanced on a Server with more people. (Like a Grind Master takes advantage of Solo dungeon dynamics to very quickly finish quests and get really good gear)

[Starkobjekt]

Big no. You are suggesting a tremendous amout of work to rebalance a system that is already working fine, you can do most low level dungeons as 3 players, maybe not a full clear on some but still not hard. Bring pots and engineering and you can. At high level this would be exploited to solo farm gold unless you make a new loot table- tremendous work.

Either way I think a massive change to the very playstyle of the game on non custom content is out of the question from dev side.

New short custom dungeons or world quests, with the feeling of a dungeon, to be made 3 man content, that I can get behind.

[Starkobjekt]

Also, if you want to run a lot of dungeons there is a leveling guild running multiple dungeons across all level ranges daily. I left to join a raiding guild but I will level all my alts in there <Philanthropy>

[Kazgrim]

Considering raids are scaled, I don't see the problem for scaling down dungeons.

[Bazou]

My suggestion is that the loot should be 3/5 in 3-men mode. Otherwise few would like to run a dungeon in a standard 5-men group. Or 5-men could be rewarded twice, 2 pieces loot drop for each boss for example, to encourage the more interaction among players.

Anyway it’s a good idea and I love it!

Turtles move on!

[Afaslizo]

I personally would suggest a gold reward for killing the bosses capped by level range (within in color appropriate so red to green bosses). Since gold is always welcome if it isn't the x-twink it provides additional incentive to enter and finish dungeons especially if the biggest reward is for killing the endboss.

[Kiergan]

Would it not be better if there was a way to get alliance player into the RFC-dungeon?
Then you have twice the number of players available.
And when done, they can leave the group and get ported back to their HS-location.

Same for the stockades.

And perhaps working meeting-stones would be a good idea overall, since we have cross-faction, it will make mixed groups easier to form.

[Vernalsole1355]

I think that maybe Turtle could put a feature in that the other faction can buy with either in-game currency or IRL money to allow a 1-time teleport to a dungeon in opposing territory such as RFC for Alliance, and give them like a 5 minute immunity to being attacked by the guards. But I don't think TPing to dungeons should be always available.

EDIT (3/1/21) - Feature irrelevant. Guards don't attack you in front of dungeons. Disregard.

[Raukodor]

Could be a good idea but hard in some situatuons ot mechanics

[Withinamnesia]

Why not 2 person dungeons? The smallest group possible? Has less powerful loot but can be very fun when you find a friend and you team up to get some greens, maybe a blue or two.

It would be great for leveling and would naturally draw players in. When another group rolls up to the same dungeon you could start a 5 man version and get regular loot. Or if a dungeon group falls apart you could scale down to 2 person group version and still have loads of fun. If you are really good (over geared or like 7-10 levels above) you could solo it if you are running low on gear while questing.

There could be instance versions with lower tuned bosses or less bosses or different bosses that are regular quest elites with regular mobs packed in. Any 2 players could do it and maybe a dungeon helper npc for heals at last killed boss or something if the group has no healer.

[Unangwata]

yeah, solo or 2 man dungeons sound more appealing

[Vernalsole1355]

I've been told by several members of the Turtle WoW staff that this isn't intended to be a solo game. Your supposed to socialize. Having 1 friend to come with you for Duo Dungeons, while still technically social, is the BARE minimum and it's gonna take some serious battering to bring that gate down.

3-man Dungeons allow for a balance between socialization and time required to get a group, with ease of access. 3 is as low as it needs to go in my opinion.

[Unangwata]

I don't think forcing people to socialize is a good idea. That's why solo dungeons is an option when you don't feel like. 2 man dungeons gives you different connection to person you are with than with more people. Notice when you are 1 on 1 with someone and when with a group, experience is different. This would be good opportunity to make friends.

[Balake]

"I don't think forcing people to socialize is a good idea." That's honestly the point of MMORPGs, that's like saying I don't think forcing people to aim at the enemy is a good idea for a first person shooter game.

Assuming doing the dungeon as 2 players instead of 5 gives 2/5 the reward (So every participant still gets as much as they would have gotten if done with 5) then duos who know each other will just do the dungeon as 2 99% of the time, because they trust each other and would rather do it like that then get a stranger and socialize. This disincentives grouping with new people cause everyone will just do dungeons with their one or two friends.

[Unangwata]

"I don't think forcing people to socialize is a good idea." That's honestly the point of MMORPGs, that's like saying I don't think forcing people to aim at the enemy is a good idea for a first person shooter game.

I see it as an option in MMORPG games, rather than necessity, although it is usually necessary sooner or later. I don't see grouping others as point of MMO's, I play all my life and mostly solo.
This sort of need for socializing leads to competition for no reason, guild drama, expectations etc.

[Balake]

You can play the game almost entirely solo at a surface level. The keyword is almost, it can't be a fully singleplayer adventure. There needs to be some things that require grouping up with people. Dungeons and raids are designed as group activities that reward powerful gear. Making them solo breaks the design. The quality of the reward is always proportional to the challenge and number of people needed. That's why elite mobs give more xp and drop greens more often, and UBRS being a 10-man instance gives generally stronger gear than 5-man dungeons, and same for ZG compared to UBRS. If dungeons are made doable with 2 players then they need to reward gear that is weaker than its 5 player counterpart. WEAKER as in greens or low ilvl blues, not just fewer (in quantity). Otherwise people will just do it duo every single time.

A shaman and warrior duoing every single dungeon all the way to max level is not the way Blizzard intended it, it pretty much turns it into a fun-server cause their leveling would be so easy and so absurdly fast. And scale it down to 2 man dungeons, hunters and warlocks will literally just solo it and start selling runs for gear. It's not just giving people an option BESIDES socializing, it's completely removing the incentive to socialize. The people who want to play it the intended way will no longer be able to cause others either duo with their friend or buy a run off a warlock or hunter.

[Unangwata]

Nobody says give solo dungeons full party rewards. I would be glad doing it for some currency or materials etc.This would solve repeating problem since you would abandon it after getting gear you need.
While low level dungeons could drop custom made greens.